Essay | Andy Warhol's productivity


Jacqueline Kennedy II (from the portfolio 'Eleven Pop Artists', vol. II)
Andy Warhol

Photography by Antonia Reeve. © The Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts, Inc. Licensed by DACS, London 2023
Throughout his life and career critics and commentators often referred to Andy Warhol (1928-1987) as ‘detached’, ‘alien’ and ‘aloof’. [1] He is not, in such assessments, an artist in possession of feelings which need to be expressed, but rather an inhuman, relentless producer of art. The humanistic subjectivity of the creative and tortured artist, commonly associated with painters aligned with Abstract Expressionism—the art movement which directly preceded Pop—was replaced in the 1960s by Warhol’s vision of a cold, mechanical art which relied less on the gestural mark-making of the artist’s hand and more on the logical precision of machines and technologies of reproduction. For many, this suggestion of the inhuman capacity of Warhol’s art to create likeness, and repetitively mimic or copy source material can be neatly summarised by the artist’s own contention that he wanted to be like a machine.


Andy Warhol Self-Portrait 1978 © The Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts, Inc. Licensed by DACS, London 2023
In a now infamous 1963 interview with the art critic Gene Swenson, Warhol claimed that ‘everybody should be like a machine’ and ‘everybody should like everybody’, because that, after all is ‘what Pop Art is all about’.[2] Such proclamations chime with other statements made by Warhol in interviews around this time, wherein he insists that he is ‘for mechanical art’.[3] Warhol’s desire to align his working processes with the machinic is reflected in his investment in technologies of image production which minimise the necessity of human intervention, such as the automatic process of screen-printing, which could be used to create multiple paintings and prints, one after another; and the still and cinematic film camera which had only to be loaded with film and switched on by Warhol to begin the recording process. This preference for automation and machine-production reaches its peak in the Warhol literature with an “interview” of Warhol conducted by his studio assistant Gerard Malanga. The interview in question was composed entirely (i.e. both the questions and their answers) by Malanga and submitted to Warhol for his approval before publication. In the piece “Warhol” gives his full-throated support to the idea of automation in the economy and the art world. His potent reflections are underlined further by the meta-authorial game of having Malanga research and write the interview himself:

Q. Would you like to replace human effort?
A. Yes.
Q. Why?
A. Because human effort is too hard.
[…]
Q. How will you meet the challenge of automation?
A. By becoming part of it.
[...]
Q. Dissect the meaning of automation.
A. Automation is a way of making things easy. Automation just gives you something to do […][4]

In this short essay I am going to explore some of the ramifications of considering Warhol as a machine. Firstly, I will consider the notion of productivity across Warhol’s artistic output, both in terms of the quantity of works produced, as well as some of the ways in which his art deals with concepts of duration and diversity in art practice. Secondly, I will argue that we can read the product of Warhol’s productivity as an attempt to dissolve boundaries between different artistic media.

Numbers game
Not unlike that of a factory working at capacity, the sheer scale of Warhol’s artistic output fuels the accuracy of the machine metaphor—the artist as an efficient and methodical producer. Working with a raft of assistants throughout his career, Warhol created a staggering number of artistic products. During 1964, for instance, he produced over 305 paintings of Jackie Kennedy alone. Other marquee subjects for Warhol, which he would return to paint over and over during that pivotal decade, yielded similarly large figures, most notably his Flower and Electric Chair series. Part of the reason Warhol was able to make work in such quantity was because of the speed with which his silkscreen paintings were able to be executed, as he commented in his memoir of the 1960s:

[…] with silk-screening, you pick up a photograph, blow it up, transfer it in glue onto silk, and then roll ink across it so the ink goes through the silk but not through the glue. That way you get the same image, slightly different each time. It was so simple—quick and chancy. I was thrilled with it.[5]
Andy Warhol
After turning his attention more fully to filmmaking after 1964, Warhol founded a company with David Whitney called Factory Additions which would create print portfolios using the same silkscreen method he had employed so successfully on his canvas-based works. Reflecting on these works, Warhol is direct in his comparison to industrial/machinic production, noting that the resulting paintings and prints possessed an ‘assembly-line effect’[6]. The print portfolios allowed Warhol to disseminate even greater quantities of work: 600 variations of three different Jackie Kennedy prints, one of which, Jaqueline Kennedy II (from the portfolio ‘Eleven Pop Artists, vol. II), 1965 [GMA 1336], is included in the present Scottish National Gallery of Modern Art (NGS) exhibition ‘Warhol and Paolozzi I want to be a Machine’; 500 prints modelled after Birmingham Race Riot (1964); 632 variations of Sunset (1972); 250 editions of a 10-print Marilyn Monroe portfolio from 1967, or 2,500 multi-coloured Marilyns.


Andy Warhol Jacqueline Kennedy II (from the portfolio 'Eleven Pop Artists', vol. II) 1965 © The Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts, Inc. Licensed by DACS, London 2023

Andy Warhol, Marilyn, © 2018 The Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts, Inc. / Licensed by DACS, London.
Concurrent to the creation of the Marilyn portfolio, which has a central placement in the current hang at the NGS, Warhol was embroiled deeply in another voluminous activity: filmmaking. From 1963 until 1968 Warhol produced over 600 films, including some 472 Screen Tests (1964-1966) and around 60 feature-length works.[7] Perhaps even more noteworthy than the number of films produced by the Warhol Factory is their recourse to marathon running times. His first film Sleep (1963), a collage of repeated shots of the poet John Girono (b. 1936) sleeping, lasts for five hours and twenty minutes. One of Warhol’s final directorial efforts **** (Four Stars) clocks in at a much more substantial twenty-five hours.

Quantity and duration coalesce in another of Warhol’s multimedia activities, his constant recording of everyday meetings and conversations via a handheld tape recorder. Referred to by the artist himself as his ‘wife’, the Norelco Carry-Corder Warhol carried with him from 1964 onwards was the first mass-marketed example of such a device.[8] The Warhol Archive now houses hundreds of tapes made by Warhol throughout his life, containing over 6,000 hours of audio. Warhol would often use the recordings on these tapes as the basis for many of his published book works, many of which can be seen in vitrines in the NGS show, from memoirs such as POPism: The Warhol Sixties (1980) and The Philosophy of Andy Warhol (From A to B and Back Again), to his experimental riff on the modernist novel: a, A Novel (1968), which chronicles a day in the life of the Factory Superstar Pope Ondine (1937-1989).

Warhol’s productivity did not dissipate during the 1970s. Between 1976 and his death in 1987 Warhol began to carry with him the visual equivalent of his tape recorder “wife”, a Minox 35 EL camera. Often exposing up to a roll of film a day or more, the resulting contact sheets—a relative anachronism in the age of digital photography, a contact sheet is an inexpensive way of viewing the content of a roll of film before certain images can be selected for later enlargement and printing—number over 3,600, or 130,000 individual photographs. A visual equivalent to Warhol’s meticulous Diaries (1989), the contact sheets contain a dizzying array of disparate events, people and activities Warhol encountered in the last decade of his life, often mixing the cultural events of New York high society with portraiture, snapshots of friends and associates, as well as cityscapes depicting Manhattan street signs and advertisement hoardings.

Collapsing Distinctions
Another way of viewing Warhol’s machine-aesthetic is to make use of it as a metaphor in accounting for his restless and prolific output as a multimedia artist. Our next avenue of interpretation pushes this idea further, arguing that Warhol’s fascination with volume, quantity and duration contributes to one of the central achievements of his oeuvre: the collapsing of distinctions between different artistic media.

Take for instance the silk-screened canvases and prints mentioned above. To create these works Warhol would start with a photographic image – either found and appropriated from a print publication or taken by himself – and blow up this image before transferring it via the screen-print or silkscreen process to a surface.

Such an a mixture of media and materials has led the writer Jonathan Flatley to comment on the silk-screened paintings: ‘[i]n terms of the standards of the given media, the result is neither a good photograph or a good painting’. Flatley does not yoke this perceived failure of competency and execution to a narrative of Warhol as somehow playing at being an amateur, or revelling in his – as is often the cliché – role of performing naivety. Instead, he points us towards reading these works, which seem to be not quite painting and not quite photography, as opportunities to exercise ‘our capacity for perceiving similarities across difference’, through Warhol’s ‘transposition of idioms, sensations and information from one medium to another’.[9]

In other words, we are confronted in Warhol’s silkscreen paintings and his prints with a vision of art in which the once stable categories of photography, painting and printing are no longer separated but have coalesced and become enmeshed together in a web of artistic mediation.

Warhol often commented on this dimension of intermediality—artworks which combine and juxtapose the aesthetic effects of different media—in his work. Another illuminating test case would be his Screen Tests. Warhol famously referred to these works not as movies but ‘Stillies’.[10] Each one of these three-minute films (running over four minutes when projected at Warhol’s preferred speed rate of eighteen frames per second) depicted a single sitter whose visage was recorded by the impervious, unblinking gaze of Warhol’s 16mm film camera. Subjects were often instructed by Warhol to move as little as possible, resulting in a stasis which often gifts the films an aesthetic equivalence of still photography or portrait painting.

In an interview with Letitia Kent published in Vouge magazine in March 1970, Warhol coaxed out the intermedial tension so important to his moving image works: ‘[…] I don’t paint anymore. I gave it up two years ago. I think painting is old fashioned. In my early films I wanted to “paint” in a new medium’.[11] He goes on shortly after to state that his perhaps most notorious film, Empire (1963), could be compared to a ‘moving picture still-life’.[12] But the Screen Tests remain most emblematic of the intermedial condition of Warhol’s cinematic output, opening the medium to be considered as an incubation chamber for all manner of artistic strategies, as Callie Angel astutely attests:

"Balanced at the borderline between moving and still image, part photography and part film, part portraiture and part performance, the Screen Tests are conceptual hybrids, arising, like much of Warhol’s work, from the formal transposition of idioms from one medium to another."[13]
Callie Angel
The example of Warhol’s prodigious use of tape recordings, and their transcription from a raw unmediated state into works of fiction, semi-fiction and memoir, point us again to another area of Warhol’s modus operandi, and an aspect of his artistic practice which marks him out a pioneer of the kind of self-surveillance which has become so commonplace in the social media-saturated landscape of the early twenty-first century.


Andy Warhol, Body Builder Flexing, ARTIST ROOMS National Galleries of Scotland and Tate. Presented by The Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts 2016. © The Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts / Artists Rights Society (ARS), New York / DACS, London 2017.

Andy Warhol, Jean-Michel Basquiat, ARTIST ROOMS National Galleries of Scotland and Tate. Presented by The Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts 2016. © The Andy Warhol Foundation for the Visual Arts / Artists Rights Society (ARS), New York / DACS, London 2017.
In closing, I would like to draw attention to some of the final works conceptualised and completed by Warhol before his death in 1987. The so-called ‘Stitched Photographs’, several of which are included in the NGS exhibition, were created between 1982 and 1987 by stitching together multiple copies of individual photographs taken with his Minox 35 EL Camera.

Although considered minor works by many Warhol scholars, the ‘Stitched Photographs’ evidence a continued obsession of Warhol’s to break down barriers between artistic media.

The photographs were stitched together with the aid of his studio assistant Christopher Makos (b. 1948) and Makos’ friend Michele Loud, using a Bernina sewing machine which Warhol had purchased in 1982.

Arranged in a grid structure of four, six or nine, the stitched photographs recall the repetitive, serially structured screenprints of the 1960s. Much like the ‘quick and chancy’ nature Warhol so admired in the screen-printing process, the stitched photographs also bear the markings of imperfection, as often the individual photographs bear evidence of having been pushed through the sewing machines: their smooth surfaces are variously ruptured by bumps and creases. These marks, lumps and bumps co-mingle with deliberately left-behind lengths of the thread which were used to suture the photographs together. These seemingly uncareful and unfinished aspects of the pictures lend the pieces a sculptural quality, and continue a tradition of creating three-dimensional objects which never ceased to interest Warhol over his career.

Over 500 stitched photographs were created by Warhol in the final years of his life. Another round of productivity, and another multi-faceted and multi-media machination in which the product was not a pre-fabricated, mass-produced identical work of art, but a subjectively imbued experiment born out of the mixing of media and the engendering of a cross-model exploration of what art can be.

This film takes a look at Andy Warhol, the most famous proponent of Pop Art, his obsession with fame, and his desire ‘to be a machine’.



 

[1] See for instance: John Wilcock, ‘The Detached Cool of Andy Warhol’, Village Voice, May 6, 1965, p.11; Stephen Smith, ‘“He loved Weightlifting and Buying Jewels”’: Andy Warhol’s Friends Reveal All’, The Guardian, August 14, 2015 (available online: https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2015/aug/14/andy-warhol-friends-reveal-all) and George Gruskin, ‘Who is this man Andy Warhol?’, SCOPE, March 16, 1973, reprinted in Kenneth Goldsmith (ed.), I’ll Be Your Mirror: The Selected Andy Warhol Interviews, Carroll and Graf, New York, p. 200-220, quote on 217.

[2] Gene Swenson, ‘What is Pop? Answers from 8 Painters, Part 1’, ARTnews, November 1963, reprinted in Goldsmith, I’ll be Your Mirror, p. 15-20, quote on 16. The recent uncovering of the original tapes of Swenson’s interview with Warhol reveal that several parts of their conversation were heavily edited before going to press, particularly references to queer sexuality. In the tapes, Warhol’s insistence that being a machine and liking everything are inherently linked during a conversation about homosexuality:

Swenson: I don’t understand the business about – if all Pop artists are not homosexual, then what does this have to do with being a machine?
Warhol: Well, I think everybody should like everybody.
Swenson: You mean you should like both men and women?
Warhol: Yeah.
Swenson: Yeah? Sexually and in every other way?
Warhol: Yeah.
Swenson: And that’s what Pop art’s about?
Warhol: Yeah, it’s liking things.
Swenson: And liking things is being like a machine?
Warhol: Yeah. Well, because you do the same thing every time. You do the same thing over and over again. And you do the same. . .
Swenson: You mean sex?
Warhol: Yeah, and everything you do […]
Quoted in Jenifer Sichel‘“What is Pop Art?” A Revised Transcript of Gene Swenson’s 1963 interview with Andy Warhol’, Oxford Art Journal, 41:1 (March), 2018, p. 85-100.

[3] David Bourdon, ‘Warhol Interviews Bourdon’, 1962-1963, in Goldsmith, I’ll be Your Mirror p.6-14, quote on 9.

[4] Gerard Malanga, ‘Andy Warhol on Automation: An Interview with Gerard Malanga’, Chelsea 18, reprinted in Goldsmith, I’ll be Your Mirror, p. 59-63, quote on 60-62.

[5] Andy Warhol and Pat Hackett, POPism: The Warhol Sixties, Hutchinson, London, 1980, p. 22.

[6] Ibid.

[7] I use slightly speculative language here to indicate that Warhol’s filmography remains a very slippery subject for scholars. At present there is a seminal and exhaustive catalogue raisonné detailing the production and content of the Screen Tests (Callie Angel, Andy Warhol Screen Tests: The Films of Andy Warhol Catalogue Raisonne Volume 1, Abrams, New York, 2006). A second volume, covering the rest of his filmic output is forthcoming. A more recent and essential resource based on in-depth research in the Warhol archives is the introduction to Glyn Davis and Gary Needham’s Warhol in Ten Takes, British Film Institute, London, 2013).

[8] Andy Warhol, The Philosophy of Andy Warhol (From A to B and Back Again), Harcourt, Orlando, Austin, New York et al, 1975, p. 190.

[9] Jonathan Flatley, Like Andy Warhol, University of Chicago Press, Chicago and London, 2017, p. 113.

[10] Angel, Andy Warhol Screen Tests, p. 7.

[11] Letitia Kent, ‘Andy Warhol, Movieman: “It’s Hard to Be Your Own Script”’, Vogue, March 1, 1970, reprinted in Goldsmith, I’ll be Your Mirror, p. 185-190, quote on 186.

[12] Ibid. The scholar Justin Remes has gone even further with reference to Empire’s epic running time and profound stasis, theorising this work as a ‘furniture film’—a film which lives in a room for an extended period of time and is designed to be consumed partially and distractedly in conjunction with other activities. See Justin Remes, Motion(less) Pictures: The Cinema of Stasis, Columbia University Press, New York and Chichester, 2015, p. 31-59.

[13] Angel, Andy Warhol Screen Tests, p. 14

"Rumble"
(performed by U-God, Inspectah Deck, Letha Face, Method Man)

[U-God:]
Countdown

Are you ready? Are you mad inside?
Got you strapped down to your seats
Out of the doorway, bullets ripped, full clip

God speed, approach follow my lead
Fire winds gust, empire crush

Full thrust, fall in the hole, roll wit the rush
Untouchable chunk of earwax and soul
Sound waves slay out the bat cave smoke
My belly-full prance dance, avalanche quote
Down slope, elegant as Fantasia
Killer whale tale inhale, black male from Asia
All out the wood works, hood shirts and wizards
No match, unhatch, the rap is rigid
In the shaft, shotty cocked, hip hop to the limit
Nightwatch, pad mark
Sparks spin a quake nuclear blast, heavy on the cash
Gimmie what it takes NOW!!

Rage, rock roll, fight
Brawl, fall, rumbleee!
Rage, rock roll, fight
Brawl, fall, rumbleee!

[Letha Face:]
The diabolic witty, dialect's darker than Gotham City
With the possibility to stop your walkin ability
God forgive me, spark enemies with pistol grips
The missile tip's impact hit you so hard, you shit through your dick
Official scripts strikes when physical hits
You physical bitch, watch for the imperial blitz, serious shit
Submit, subject to the wreck war tone, and thought poems
Liver than WWF Warzone

Walk upon them Gotti tracks, bodies collapse
Rap for lottery stacks, shatter like when pottery cracks
Logical facts from the terror dome
Spill from the guts, trail to you ?puss? from where you bust
In God you now entrust
Dog you like hound and mutts, Pound Pups get sound struck
Clown what? You'll get drowned in the cut
While crowd round up

[U-God:]
Rage, rock roll, fight
Brawl, fall, rumbleee!
Rage, rock roll, fight
Brawl, fall, rumbleee!

[Inspectah Deck:]
A-yo, yo
I spit bars, traveling tremendous speed measuring far
Been busting satellites circling Mars
Verbal onslaught, bring forth physical force
Of a hundred wild niggas piled in a Trojan Horse
Thought method, set it on generic mic ethic
Professional neck shit, left foes beheaded
This music, is mind control like computer chips
Been doing this for numerous years, refuse to lose it
With turbo tactics, maneuver like a trained soldier
Hall of Fame flame thrower, take game, it's game over
Ayatollah, high roller nine totter

Mind controller, 2009 time folder
My coalition, bring the demolition
Wu-blade decision, slate the competition, wit no intermission
Spitting hazardous darts, up front like Rosa Parks
Makin million men march

[U-God:]
Rage, rock roll, fight
Brawl, fall, rumbleee!
Rage, rock roll, fight
Brawl, fall, rumbleee!

[Method Man:]
Yo, who got next? Meth got next
I chin check, all these MC's line em up god, I go Jihad
Declare holy war, it be hard to dip and dodge
Police squads trying to bogard, we rip and rob
The boulevard ain't safe for your kids, that's how it is
In the ghetto, we ain't scared to death, but scared to live

So Goldy, mosey to the spot, get that moldy
Rusty-ass .38 Special, niggas owe me
Slowly I turn, face the one and only
Naughty By Nature, I Do My Dirt All By My Lonely

Ask Pretty Tony, when I got a bitch I keeps a bitch
36 Chambers, enter at your own risk

Take that watch off and tuck your necklace
City never sleeps, streets is restless
Rap style'll slave you, when you least expect it
Pull the plug on your respirator, leave you breathless

Wu-Tang forever and a day, better warn your boys
I deploy battleship rap, seek and destroy

[U-God:]
Rage, rock roll, fight
Brawl, fall, rumbleee!
Rage, rock roll, fight
Brawl, fall, rumbleee!

"Wu-Tang: 7th Chamber"

[Raekwon:]
Yo, Meth, hold up, hold up
Yo, Meth, where my Killer tape at, God?
First of all, where my
Where the fuck is my tape at?

[Method Man:]
Yo, son, I ain't got that piece, son

[Raekwon:]
How you ain't got my shit when I let you hold it, man?

[Method Man:]
Yo, niggas came over to have 40s and blunts, kid
The shit just came up missin', son

[Raekwon:]
Come on, man, that don't got nothin' to do with my shit, man
Come on, man, go head with that shit, man

[Method Man:]
Come on, man, I'll buy you four more fuckin' Killer tapes, man

[U-God:]
Ayo! Ayo!

[Raekwon:]
Open the door, man! What the fuck, man?
Yo, what? What's up?

[Ghostface Killah:]
Yo, yo, God, word is bond, yo
Shameek just got bust in his head two times, God!

[U-God:]
Word to mother!

[Ghostface Killah:]
Word life, God
You know Shameek from fuckin' 212, God?
The nigga just got bucked
Niggas in a black Land, God, word is bond
Came through, God, from out of nowhere, God
Word is bond I'm comin' to get my Culture Cipher, God
And they just... word is bond
Crazy shots just went the fuck off, God

[U-God:]
Niggas let off crazy shots, kid

[Ghost:]
The nigga layin' there like a fuckin' newborn fuckin' baby, God

[U-God:]
Word up!

[Meth:]
Is he dead?

[Ghost:]
Is he fuckin' dead?
What the fuck you mean is he fuckin' dead, God?

[U-God:]
What the fuck kind of question is that, B? Fuck you think?

[RZA:]
Easy, easy

[Ghost:]
The nigga layin' there with his fuckin'
All types of fuckin' blood comin' out of his fuckin'

[U-God:]
(Sarcastically) Is he is he is he dead?

[Ghost:]
Yo, God, what's up, God? It's the God, God, word is bond
Yo, what's up? I'm ready to fuckin' lay
I'm ready to get busy, God, what's up?

[Rae:]
Yo, let's go do what we got

[U-God:]
What's up, yo?

[Rae:]
Yo let's go do what we gotta do, man, fuck it

[U-God:]
Yo, we out or what, man?

[Ghost:]
It's the God, God, fuck that, man

[U-God:]
You sayin' we out?

[Meth:]
They probably took the tape

[Ghost:]
What the fuck?

[Rae:]
Nigga still sweatin' the tape, man

[Ghost:]
What the fuck is you talkin' about? Get the fuck outta here!

[Rae:]
Fuckin' corn!

[Wu-Tang Clan:]
Good Morning Vietnam!
Yeah, good morning
To all you motherfuckin' knotty-headed niggas
Word to the camouflage large niggas
Bitch, where the fuck is my bottle?
Bring that fuckin' meth in here!
Yo, yo, yo
Now we gonna drink some good Night train
Yo, yo, yo, yo!

[Raekwon:]
Champion gear that I rock, you get your boots knocked
Then attack ya like a pit, then, lock shit down
As I come and freaks the sound, hardcore
But givin' you more and more like "Ding!"
Nah, shorty, get you open like six packs
Killa Beez attack, flippin' what? Murder one phat tracks, aight?
I kick it like a Nike Flight
Word life, I get that ass robbed on spite
Check the method from Bedrock, 'cause I rock your head to bed
Just like rockin' what? Twin Glocks!
Shake the ground while my beats just break you down
Raw sound, goin' to war right now
So, yo, bombin', We-Usually Take-All-Niggas-Garments
Save your breath before I vomit

[Method Man:]
I be that insane nigga from the psycho ward, I'm on the trigger
Plus I got the Wu-Tang sword, so how you figure
That you can even fuck with mine?
Hey, yo, RZA! Hit me with that shit one time!
And pull a foul, niggas, save the beef for the cow
I'm milkin' this ho, this is my show, Tical!
The fuck you wanna do on this mic piece, duke?
I'm like a sniper, hyper off the ginseng root
PLO Style, Buddha monks with the owls
Now, who's the fuckin' man? Meth-Tical

[Method Man (Inspectah Deck):]
On the chessbox
"Wu-Tang style"

[Inspectah Deck:]
Yo, yeah, yo
I leave the mic in body bags
My rap style has the force to leave ya lost like the Tribe of Shabazz
Murderous material made by a madman
It's the mic wrecker, Inspectah, bad man
From the bad lands of the Killa
Rap fanatic, representin' with the skill that's iller
Dare to compare, get pierced just like your ear
The Shooby Doo-Wop pop, strictly hardware
Armed and geared 'cause I just broke out the prison
Charged by the system for murderin' the rhythm
Now, lo and behold another deadly episode
Bound to catch another fuckin' charge when I explode!

[Ghostface Killah:]
Slammin' a hype-ass verse 'til your head burst
I ramshack dead in the track, and that's that
Rap assassin, fast and quick to blast in hardrock
I ran up in spots like Fort Knox
I'm hot! Top notch, Ghost thinks with logic
Flashbacks how I attacked your whole project
I'm raw, I'm rugged and raw! I repeat
If I die, my seed'll be ill like me
Approachin' me, yo, out of respect, chops to neck
I get vexed, like crashin' up a phat-ass Lex
So, clear the way! Make way! Yo, open the cage!
Peace, I'm out, jettin' like a runaway slave

[RZA:]
You gettin' stripped from your garments, boy, run your jewels
All the meth got me open like Fallopian tubes
I bring death to a snake when he least expect
Ain't a damn thing changed, boy, Protect Ya Neck!
Ruler Zig-Zag-Zig Allah, jam is fatal
Quick to stick my Wu-Tang sword right through your navel
Suspenseful force bein' brought through my utensil
The pencil, I bring strong winds up against you
Havoc, then run through your county like the Maverick
Caps through the tablets, I gots to make the fabrics

[Ol' Dirty Bastard:]
A-a-a-ah-ah, are you a warrior, killer? Slicin' shit like a samurai?
The Ol' Dirty Bastard from the bar!
Ol' Dirty clan of terrorists
Comin' at your ass like a sorceress, shootin' that piss
Niggas be gettin' on my fuckin' nerves
Rhymes they be kickin' make me wanna kick they fuckin' ass to the curb
Boy got funky fresh like the Old Specialist
A carrier, messenger, bury ya
This experience is for the whole experience
Let it be applied, Unique, drop that science!

[GZA:]
My-My-My-My clan is thick like plaster, bust ya, slash ya
Slit a nigga back like a Dutch Master
Killer style jumped off in Killa Hilla
I was the thriller in the Ali-Frazier Manila
I came down with phat tracks that combine and interlock
Like gettin' smashed by a cinder block
Poaw! Now it's all over
Niggas seein' pink hearts, yellow moons
Orange stars and green clovers

"Method Man"

[Method Man & Raekwon:]
Yeah, torture, motherfucker, what?
(Torture, nigga, what?)
What? I'll fuckin', I'll fuckin' tie you to a fuckin' bedpost
With your ass cheeks spread out and shit, right?
Put a hanger on a fuckin' stove and let that shit sit there for like a half hour, take it off and stick it in your ass slow like "tsss"
(Yeah, I'll fuckin', yeah, I'll fuckin' lay your nuts on a fuckin' dresser, just your nuts layin' on a fuckin' dresser, and bang them shits with a spiked fuckin' bat blaow)
Ooh wassup?
I'll fuckin', I'll fuckin', pull your fuckin' tongue out your fuckin'
Mouth and stab the shit with a rusty screwdriver, blaow
(I'll fuckin', I'll fuckin', I'll fuckin' hang you by your fuckin' dick off the fuckin' twelfth stor-story building out this motherfucker)
I'll fuckin', I'll fuckin', sew your asshole closed, and keep feedin' you, and feedin' you, and feedin' you, and feedin' you
Yo, roll the dice, yo, roll the dice
Yo, so it's goin' down like that, huh? Yeah?
Niggas is wildin', check it out, kid

[GZA:]
From the slums of Shaolin, Wu-Tang Clan strikes again
The RZA, the GZA, Ol' Dirty Bastard, Inspectah Deck
Raekwon the Chef, U-God, Ghostface Killah and the Method Man

[Method Man:]
M-E-T-H-O-D Man
M-E-T-H-O-D Man
M-E-T-H-O-D Man
M-E-T-H-O-D Man

Hey, you, get off my cloud
You don't know me and you don't know my style
Who be gettin' flam when they come to a jam?
Here I am, here I am, the Method Man
Pat-a-cake, pat-a-cake, hey, the Method Man
Don't eat Skippy, Jif or Peter Pan
Peanut butter 'cause I'm not butter
In fact, I snap back like a rubber
Band, I be Sam, Sam-I-Am
And I don't eat green eggs and ham
Style'll hit ya, wham, then goddamn
You'll be like, "Oh shit, that's the jam"
Turn it up, now hear me get buck w-w-wild
I'm about to blow, light me up (Light me up)
Upside, downside, inside and outside
Hittin' you from every angle, there's no doubt I
Am the one and only Method Man
The master of the plan, rappin' shit like Saran
Wrap, with some of this and some of that
Hold up (What?) I tawt I taw a putty tat
Over there, but I think he best to beware
Of the diggy dog shit right here
Yippy-yippy-yay, yippy-yah, yippy-yo
Like Deck said, "This ain't your average flow"
Comin' like rah, ooh-ah, achie-kah
Tell me, how you like it so far, baby paw?
The poetry's in motion, coast to coast and
Rub it on your skin like lotion
What's the commotion? Oh my Lord
Another corn chopped by the Wu-Tang sword
"Hey, hey, hey" like Fat Albert
It's the Method Man, ain't no if ands about it
It's the Method

Alright, y'all, get your White Owls
Get your Meth', get your skins
Don't forget your 'orty
And we gonna do it like this

I got fat bags of skunk
I got White Owl blunts
And I'm about to go get lifted
Yes, I'm about to go get lifted
I got myself a Forty
And I got myself a shorty
And I'm about to go and stick it
Yes, I'm about to go and stick it, uh

H-U-F-F, huff, and I puff
Blow like snow when the cold wind's blowin'
Zoom, I hit the mic like boom
Wrote a song about it, like to hear it? Here it goes
Question, what exactly is a panty raider?
Ill behavior, savior or major flavor
All of the above, oh yeah, plus seducer
Also, flam, I'm the man, call me super
Not an average Joe with an average flow
Doin' average things with average hoes
Yo, I'm super, I'll make a bitch squirm
For my super sperm (Check it)
Check it, I give it to you raw butt-naked
I smell sess, pass the method
Let's get lifted as I kick ballistic
Missiles and shoot game like a pistol
Clip is loaded when I click bang (Bang)
A Wu-Tang slug hits your brain
J-U-M-P, jump, and I thump
Make girls rump like pump and Humpty Hump
Wild, the Shaolin style is all in me
Child, the whole damn isle is callin' me
P-A-N-T-Y, R-A-I-D-E-R, mad raw, I don't fry
Meaning, no one can burn or toss and turn me
Ooh, I be the super sperm
Chim-chimney, chim-chim, cher-ee
Freak a flow and flow fancy free
Now, how many licks does it take
For me to hit the Tootsie Roll center of a break?
Peep and don't sleep, the crew's mad deep (Wu-Tang)
Fadin' motherfuckers like bleach
So to each and every crew
You're clear like glass, I could see right through
Your whole damn posse be catchin' 'em all, 'cause you vic'd
And you didn't have friends to begin with, I'm—

The M-E-T-H-O-D Man
M-E-T-H-O-D Man
M-E-T-H-O-D Man
Here I am, here I am, the Method Man

[RZA (Ghostface Killah) {Method Man}:]
Straight from the slums of Shaolin
Wu-Tang Killa Beez on a swarm
(Your soul have just been tooken)
(Through the 36 Chambers of death, kid)
{Word to mother, Method Man signin' off, peace}

"Wu-Tang: 7th Chamber - Part 2"

[The Genius/GZA:]
Niggas on the left, brag shit to death
Now hoods on the right, wild for the night
Punks in the back, c'mon and attract to what
Clan in da front, let your feet stomp
Niggas on the left, brag shit to death
Hoods on the right, wild for the night
Punks in the back, c'mon and attract to what
This goes back to nineteen
Ahem, check it, yo
GOOD MORNING VIETNAM!!

Yeah, good morning to all you motherfuckin notty-headed niggas
Word to the camouflage large niggas
Bitch niggas fuckin my body
Bring that fuckin meth in here
Yo yo yo yo
Now we gonna drink some good Nightrain

[Raekwon:]
Champion gear that I rock, you get your boots knocked
Then attack you like a pit that lock shit DOWN
As I come and freaks the sound, hardcore
But giving you more and more, like ding!
Nah shorty, get you open like six packs
Killer Bees attack, flippin what, murder one, phat tracks
A'ight? I kick it like a Night Flite!
Word life, I get that ass raw, I'm fulla spite!
Check the method from Bedrock, cause I rock ya head to bed
Just like rockin what? Twin Glocks!
Shake the ground while my beats just break you down
Raw sound, we going to war right now
So, yo, bombin
We Usually Take All Niggas Garments
Save ya breath before I vomit

[Method Man:]
I be that insane nigga from the psycho ward
I'm on the trigger, plus I got the Wu-Tang sword
So how you figure that you can even fuck with mine?
Hey, yo, RZA! Hit me with that shit one time!
And pull a foul, niggas save the beef on the cow
I'm milkin this ho, this is MY show, tical
The FUCK you wanna do? More than Spike Lee's Do
I'm like a sniper, hyper off the ginseng root
PLO style, Buddha monks with the owls
So who's the fucking man? Meth-Tical
On the chessbox

[Inspectah Deck:]
Yo, yeah, yo
I leave the mic in body bags, my rap style has
The force to leave you lost, like the tribe of Shabazz
Murderous material, made by a madman
It's the mic wrecker, Inspector, bad man
From the bad lands of the killer, rap fanatic
Representing with the skill that's iller
Dare to compare, get pierced just like an ear
The zoo-we-do-wop-bop strictly hardware
Armed and geared cause I just broke out the prison
Charged by the system - for murdering the rhythm!
Now, lo and behold, another deadly episode
Bound to catch another fuckin charge when I explode

[Ghostface Killah:]
Slammin a hype-ass verse til ya head burst
I ramshack dead in the track, and that's that
Rap assassin, fastin, quick to blast and hardrock
I ran up in spots like Fort Knox!
I'm hot, top notch, Ghost thinks with logic
Flashback's how I attacked your whole project
I'm raw, I'm rugged and raw! I repeat, if I die
My seed'll be ill like me
Approachin me, you out of respect, chops ya neck
I get vexed, like crashing up a phat-ass Lex'
So clear the way, make way, yo! Open the cage
Peace, I'm out, jettin like a runaway slave

[RZA:]
Ya gettin stripped from ya garments, boy, run ya jewels
While the meth got me open like falopian tubes
I bring death to a snake when he least expect
Ain't a damn thing changed, boy, Protect Ya Neck
Ruler Zig Zag, Zig-Allah jam is fatal
Quick to stick my Wu-Tang sword right through ya navel
Suspenseful, plus bein bought through my utensil
The pencil, I break strong winds up against your
Abbot, that run up through your county like the Maverick
Caps through the tablets, I gots to make the fabrics

[Ol' Dirty Bastard:]
Are uh-ah-uh Are you a warrior? Killer? Slicin shit like a samurai
The Ol' Dirty Bastard from the bar
Ol' Dirty clan of terrorists
Comin atcha ass like a sorceress, shootin' that PISS!
Niggas be gettin on my fuckin nerves
Rhymes they be kickin make me wanna kick they fuckin ass to the curb
I got funky fresh, like the old specialist
A carrier, messenger, bury ya
This experience is for the whole experience
Let it be applied, and THEN DROP THAT SCIENCE

[Genius/GZA:]
My my my
My Clan is thick like plaster
Bust ya, slash ya
Slit a nigga back like a Dutch Master Killer
Style jumped off and Killa, Hill-er
I was the thriller in the Ali-Frazier Manilla

I came down with phat tracks that combine and interlock
Like getting smashed by a cinder block
Blaow! Now it's all over
Niggas seeing pink hearts, yellow moons
Orange stars and green clovers

"Conclusion"

[Inspectah Deck:] Yo butter butter
[Method Man:] Protect Ya Neck baby

[Ghostface Killah:] Respect due pa
[Inspectah Deck:] Peace
[Ghostface Killah:] Peace
[Inspectah Deck:] Word up Wu-Tang in the house though

[Interviewer:]
I guess a lot of people in ya
I guess they can feel the realness you
They could feel the vibe
And I think hip hop, that's what I be tellin a lot of people
A lot of record promoters and a lot of artists
I mean it's like, it's music that you gotta touch and feel
You know what I'm sayin'
And I think that comes across well in the video
I haven't seen you live yet, I'm waitin for the chance
But I'm pretty sure that's probably what's it like
You know you probably really get into it
I guess I hear it in your voices when you sayin the rhymes
Um, what ya say ya style is?

[Kung Fu sample:]
It's a secret! Never teach the Wu-Tang

[RZA:]
You best protect ya neck
You best protect ya neck
You best protect ya neck
You best protect ya neck

Secret Supreme – Chapter Thirteen The Birth of the Tantras At the beginning of Satyuga Lord Śiva appeared in the form of Svacchandanātha, with five heads and eighteen arms. His five heads came into manifestation through his five great energies: cit śakti, all consciousness; ānanda śakti, all bliss; icchā śakti, all will; jñāna śakti, all knowledge; and kriyā śakti, all action. These five energies, which appeared in His five mouths, are known as – Īśāna, Tatpuruṣa, Aghora, Vāmadeva and Sadyojāta. Because of the grace (anugraha) of Lord Śiva, these five mouths experienced the sensation of illuminating the Universe.   Svacchandanātha – Aghoranātha You see, Lord Śiva wanted to enlighten the universe by manifesting the existence of the Tantras. In order to accomplish this, He manifested the sixty-four Bhairava Tantras, which are filled with monistic thought (abheda), and which are connected with Kashmir Śaivism. In the three yugas (ages); satyuga, tretāyuga, and dvāparayuga; masters and disciples were very great, and they were initiated verbally. The power of memory in them was so great that they remembered everything instantaneously, so there was no need to write anything down or to refer to books and papers. [But] when kaliyuga occurred, these masters and disciples were so disappointed they hid themselves in unknown places in order to avoid the touch of worldly people living at that time. Because of this the theory of the Bhairava Tantras and Kashmir Śaivism was lost. Lord Śiva, however, always wishes to illuminate the universe and so He reappeared in this world [at the beginning of kaliuga] on Mount Kailash, not in the form of Svacchandanātha with five mouths, but in the form of Śrīkaṇṭhanātha. Śrī Kaṇṭhanāth In the form of Śrīkaṇṭhanātha, [Lord Śiva] again taught the theory of the Bhairava Tantras to the sage Durvāsā Ṛiṣi, instructing him to expand the thought of the Bhairava Tantras in all the universe without restriction to caste, creed, color or gender. After Śrīkaṇṭhanātha taught Durvāsā Ṛiṣi in this manner, he disappeared into the ether. [ END ] — Excerpt #2 — Self-Realization in Kashmir Shaivism Talks on Practice (page 72) Svacchandanatha, while creating these Tantras through His five mouths, possessed eighteen arms. These eighteen arms are symbols of the eighteen elements or tattvas. These tattvas are offshoots of His five great Śaktis and are created in the following manner.  Cit-śakti gives rise to one element, manas-tattva, the element of mind.  Ānanda-śakti gives rise to two elements, buddhi and ahaṁkāra, the elements of intellect and ego.  Īcchā-śakti gives rise to the five vital airs (vāyu) of the body. These are prāṇa, apāna, samāna, udāna, and vyāna.  Jñāna-śakti gives rise to five elements known as the jñānendriyas, the five organs of knowledge: nose (ghraṇa), tongue (rasaṇa), eyes (cakṣu), skin (tvaca), and ears (srotra).  Kriya-śakti gives rise to the five organs of action, karmendriyas. These include the organ of generation (upastha), excretion (pāyu), mobility (pāda), holding (pāṇi), and speech (vāk). These eighteen arms of Lord Śiva, in the form of Svacchandanātha, are created by Lord Śiva for the protection of the individual, but in order to receive this protection, the individual must adhere to divine discipline [i.e., yama and niyama].

गायत्र्या गीयते यस्य धियां तेजः प्रचोदकम् । चोदयेदपि कच्चिन्नः स धियः सत्पथे प्रभुः ॥७८॥ gāyatryā gīyate yasya dhiyāṁ tejaḥ pracodakam / codayedapi kaccinnaḥ sa dhiyaḥ satpathe prabhuḥ //78// There is the mantra of the Gāyatrī mantra.145 The Gāyatrī mantra is: “Oṁ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ, tat savitur vareṇyaṁ, bhargo devasya dhīmahi, dhiyo yo na, praco-dayāt.” Oṁ, I accept,146 bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ, there are three worlds (bhūḥ, bhuvaḥ, and svaḥ). There is this universe, there is the universe of planets, and there is the universe of . . .147 ERNIE: Heavens. SWAMIJI: Tat savitur, the sun of all of these three worlds, the shining embodiment of . . . ERNIE: Light. SWAMIJI: . . . He puts, He induces, the light on these three worlds, which are existing, which I confess they are existing (bhūḥ, bhuvaḥ, and svaḥ); tat savitur, He who is the light giver of these three worlds, and His effulgent light is vareṇyam (vareṇyam is “worth having, worth possessing”). Tat savitur vareṇyam bharga (bharga means, light), His effulgent light is worth having, worth possessing. I meditate on That light. ERNIE: That’s the mantra. SWAMIJI: This is the meaning of this Gāyatrī mantra. Vareṇyam teja, vareṇyam bharga, bhargo devasya dhī-mahi, I meditate on It, I contemplate on That light of the Lord, dhiyo yo naḥ, who will elevate our shrunken . . . “Shrunken”? JOACHIM:  Yes. SWAMIJI: . . . shrunken intellectual position, who will elevate our shrunken intellectual position and insert it in that effulgent light of the universal sun–Gāyatrī. This is the mantra of Gāyatrī. He says . . . now he refers to that mantra. JOHN: Gāyatrī means, the universal light, or . . . the word “gāyatrī”? SWAMIJI: The meaning of gāyatrī? Gāyatrī means, he who sings His glory, he is protected by That–the singer is protected. ERNIE: And the singer sings this mantra? SWAMIJI: Yes. Gāyatryā gīyate yasya dhiyāṁ tejaḥ pracodakam; yasya tejaḥ, yasya gāyatryā tejaḥ, gāyatryā gīyate, by this mantra of Gāyatrī, [the purpose for which] it is sung, “Whose effulgent light,” is dhiyām pracodakam, is inducing the power of your individual understanding to insert it in the universal understanding.148. It is pracodakam.149 [Bhaṭṭa Nārāyaṇa says]: I don’t want that! I don’t want that thing to be done in my intellectual cycle. Codayet api kaccit naḥ sa dhiya, let that power of that effulgent light insert me, or direct me, codayet api, on the path of Śaivism. That is my pracodaka. I don’t want to elevate my intellectual cycle. I want to get myself on the path of Śaivism. That is what I . . . I long for this favor from Gāyatrī. ERNIE: Why? Because that . . . SWAMIJI: I want Śaivism, bas, that is all. ERNIE: That is more. SWAMIJI: That is more than That. I don’t want to get my intellectual cycle elevated only. I don’t want that elevation. I want myself to be stepped on the path of Śaivism.

Chapter Fifteen: Kashmir Shaivism and Advaita Vedanta Although the main principle of both Kashmir Śaivism and Vedānta is monism (advaita), pure monism, yet there are many important differences in their thinking. For example, Vedānta masters teach that karmayoga means yoga in action. They believe that you must practice niḥṣkāma karmayoga, which means that you are to perform all the actions of the world without asking for any reward. They say that by acting in this way you are carried toward the existence of the Real Being, the Real Nature of Self. From our Kashmir Śaiva point of view, however, karmayoga means something else. It does not mean carrying out all of the activities of the world. Yoga in action is pure yoga and nothing else. Pure yoga is one-pointedness, and this one-pointedness must be developed in three ways. You must develop one-pointedness in the existence of your being. This is one-pointedness in the state of parā vāk (supreme speech). You must also develop one-pointedness in the state of madhyamā vāk (medium speech). And finally, you must develop one-pointedness in the state of vaikharī vāk (inferior speech), in the state of ordinary speech. In Śaivism, we begin with the central way, the way of madhyamā vāk. Kashmir Śaivism explains that yoga in action means that when you are seated in a bus, or when you are walking on the road, you must observe silence. Walk silently, sit in the bus silently. Do not talk to anybody. Continue your practice of contemplating Lord Śiva as you were instructed by your Master, without talking to anybody. This is how you begin. It is not possible at first to practice yoga while talking. In the beginning, you have to start with silence. This yoga in action is tremendously powerful. For example, if you were to continue your practice of contemplation for just fifteen minutes while walking, the benefit will be the same as you would acquire if you were to continuously practice contemplation in your meditation room for two or even three years. This is because yoga in action makes your practice of contemplation more firm, solid, and substantial. This is why Kashmir Śaivism puts stress on yoga in action, and not on that yoga which is inactive. In the practice of yoga in action in madhyamā vāk, you begin with silence. And when you rise from madhyamā, you will rise in the parā state of Śiva. This parā state will occur, however, only when you have completed your activity. For example, while practicing your contemplation, you take a ten mile walk, five miles going and five miles returning, after which you go home, where you sit in meditation. At this point, you will automatically enter the parā state of yoga in action and this will carry you rapidly to that state of Transcendental Being. You must enter into the parā state of yoga in action automatically. You cannot make it happen. If it does not happen, then you will have to begin again practicing contemplation in action. It is by the strength of yoga in action that you enter into the parā state of yoga. If your contemplation in action is spontaneous and break-less, then you will automatically enter into the parā state of yoga. If, on the other hand, your contemplation breaks at any time while practicing, then when you sit for meditation, contemplation on parā will not take place and you will have to begin again. This is called karmayoga. When you are established in the yoga of action in parā vāk, then, after some time, you have to travel from parā vāk to vaikharī vāk. Practicing yoga in action in vaikharī vāk means that you are to remain established in your own being while talking, while laughing, while carrying out all of the actions of the world. This kind of yoga in action in vaikharī vāk is not possible unless yoga in action in madhyamā vāk and yoga in action in parā vāk are complete. The sign of their being complete is that whenever you practice yoga in action in madhyamā vāk and afterwards you sit and meditate, you enter into parā vāk, you are inside, residing in your own Nature. Establishing yoga in action in vaikharī vāk is the completion of the course of yoga in action. Here, you remain established in your own Being in all the activities of the world. It is said that Lord Kṛiṣṇa was perfectly established in yoga in action in vaikharī. He was very active, doing everything while remaining established in his own nature. The first difference, therefore, between Kashmir Śaivism and Vedānta is in their different understanding of karmayoga. This difference, as you have seen, is very great, with the Vedāntins believing that karmayoga means doing all actions without asking for their reward and our Kashmir Śaivism teaching that yoga in action means doing all actions while maintaining a break-less contemplation of God. Another difference between Kashmir Śaivism and Vedānta concerns the existence of individual being and Universal Being. The Vedāntins explain that individual being is manifested only when Universal Being is reflected in the mirror of the individual intellect. They say that Universal Being is reflected in the intellect (buddhi) and that reflection becomes the existence of the individual being (jīva). Kashmir Śaivism, however, does not recognize this explanation, arguing that it is without any basis. As Universal Being is absolutely pure and perfect and individual being is filled with imperfections (malas) and covered by veils, it is not buddhi that will reflect Universal Being, but rather, it is Universal Being that will reflect buddhi. It is the purer and more refined reality which will take the reflection of that which is less pure and refined and not the other way around. Buddhi cannot hold Universal Being. Kashmir Śaivism explains that when Śiva is reflected by His pure will in the mirror of his freedom (svātantrya), this is the existence of the universe and the existence of individual being. Furthermore, in the theory of the Vedāntins, it is not clearly explained how, if the world were not existing, buddhi, in which Lord Śiva is to be reflected, could exist at all. How could the intellect (buddhi) exist before the existence of the world? Therefore, individual being is the reflection of Lord Śiva in His svātantrya śakti. This is the existence of the universe. The third area of difference between Kashmir Śaivism and Vedānta concerns the essence, the substance, the basis of this universe. Vedānta holds that this universe is untrue, unreal. It does not really exist. It is only the creation of illusion (māyā). Concerning this point, Kashmir Śaivism argues that if Lord Śiva is real, then how could an unreal substance come out from something that is real? If Lord Śiva is real, then His creation is also real. Why should it be said that Lord Śiva is real and His creation is an illusion (māyā)? Kashmir Śaivism explains that the existence of this universe is just as real as the existence of Lord Śiva. As such, it is true, real, pure, and solid. There is nothing at all about it which is unreal. The fourth important difference between Kashmir Śaivism and Vedānta is that Vedānta does not recognize kuṇḍalinī yoga. The Vedāntins say that kuṇḍalinī yoga is meant for those who are treading on the inferior path of yoga. From our Kashmir Śaivite point of view, however, kuṇḍalinī yoga is the most important yoga in this system. Kashmir Śaivism explains that there are three paths of kuṇḍalinī yoga: parā kuṇḍalinī yoga, cit kuṇḍalinī yoga, and prāṇa kuṇḍalinī yoga. Parā kuṇḍalinī yoga is supreme kuṇḍalinī yoga. It is functioned by Lord Śiva with the universal body, not the individual body. Cit kuṇḍalinī yoga is kuṇḍalinī in consciousness. Prāṇa kuṇḍalinī yoga is kuṇḍalinī in breath. The fifth significant difference between Kashmir Śaivism and Vedānta concerns the question of who is fit to practice this monistic teaching. Vedānta holds that this teaching can only be practiced by “worthy people” such as brahmins with “good qualities.” In fact, Śaṁkarācārya holds that Vedānta is meant only for saṁyāsins1 and not others. From the Vedāntic point of view, women and other castes are not allowed to practice the Vedāntic system. This point of view, however, is not recognized by our Kashmir Śaivism. Kashmir Śaivism teaches that this monistic thought can be practiced by anyone, man or woman, without the restriction of caste, creed, or color. In fact, our Śaivism teaches us that this thought can be practiced more fruitfully by women than by men.2 Kashmir Śaivism, therefore, is a universal system, pure, real, and substantial in every respect, which can be practiced by all.

अभिलाषाद्बहिर्गतिः संवाह्यस्य ॥४०॥   abhilāṣādbahirgatiḥ saṁvāhyasya  // 40 //   “. . . by that desire to fulfill his nature of being, he feels there is a gap, it must be filled, and by that desire bahir gatiḥ, his flow and his movement move towards the objective world and not towards the subjective consciousness. Thus, he is carried from one birth to another birth, from one death to another death; he is carried just like a beast.”   Carried by whom? Carried by those energies which have been established, or governed, by the supreme wheel of the energies of God. And those are: Kañcukas – six coverings, kalā, vidyā, rāga, kāla, niyati and māyā; Antaḥkaraṇas – mind, intellect, and ego; Bahiṣkaraṇas – organs of actions and organs of senses; and five . . . Tanmātras – śabda, sparśa, rūpa, rasa, and gandha. And by these he is being carried, from one state to another state, from one life to another life; from one womb he is carried to another womb by and by, thus, he is being carried, he is not the carrier. In brief, he is paśu, just like a ‘beast’, dependent upon his past and future actions. Hence, desire is the mala, desire is the dot, impurity. And that is āṇavamala, which has appeared by perceiving one’s own Self as incomplete. When you perceive yourself as incomplete, that is avidyā, that is ignorance, and that ignorance is āṇavamala. And by that āṇavamala, desire rises in you, and by that desire, bahir gati, you are carried in the outside world, not the internal world of spirituality. Hence, your consciousness is diverted towards worldly pleasures. Kālikākrama Śāstra also says the same thing. “When that ignorance covers that Self by the way of treading on vikalpas [thoughts, impressions], then, he cannot perceive this whole universe beginning from earth to Śiva as one with God consciousness. He does not perceive like that. He perceives differentiatedly, in a differentiated manner.” Then what is the fruit of that? He becomes the object of good and bad. And by becoming the object of good and bad, he experiences in his own nature only pain, and pleasure also [which] he experiences as pain.   When, on the contrary the grace of Lord Śiva is infused in his consciousness – pārameśa śaktipāta vaśa unmiṣitam – and by that infusion when he contemplates and realizes his own nature in the true sense, then he destroys all desires in himself, and he does not move towards the outside world, on the contrary, he is always centered in his own God consciousness. That is what he explains in this next śloka. तदारूढप्रमितेस्तत्क्षयाज्जीव संक्षयः ॥४१॥   tadārūḍhapramitestatkṣayājjīva saṁkṣayaḥ  // 41 //   “That fortunate person whose consciousness is established in his own real nature, all desires vanish in him, so the state of being an individual is finished.” As previously, in previous sūtras, we have explained, that state of turya which is only the state of knower, not known or knowledge – only knower, the state of knower – when, the yogi whose consciousness is established, and fully aware in that supreme God consciousness, then, that desire which seemed to be existing there, that desire vanishes, and jīva bhāva, ‘individuality’ is finished. Then, that state of being aware that, “I am puryaṣṭaka, I am the body, I am organs, I am the mind, intellect and ego,” that state is over. That means, it is appeased, it is śānta. On the contrary, his consciousness shines in cit, in his own nature. In Kālikākrama it is said: “When one is experiencing the dreaming state and he perceives so many dreams, various dreams, various ways of the world of dreams, when he gets out of it, when he enters in wakefulness, then all of those dreams vanish altogether, no dream is existing at all.” In the same way, when a fortunate yogi puts awareness in this way on this objective world of the universe, “that this universe is not the objective world, it is only subjective consciousness, nothing else,” and the more he puts awareness on subjective consciousness, he becomes one with subjective consciousness. So, this imagination also becomes true for him. By and by, by and by, you put your awareness in this imagination that – “this whole universe is nothing but my own Self-nature” – go on meditating on it in continuation and a time will come when you will become one with that God consciousness. That person who is established in his own nature always (nityam), and who is bent upon destroying the sphere of time, he wants to destroy the sphere of time by putting consciousness on the timeless point; and the timeless point is found between two breaths, the timeless point is found between one step and another step, one talk and another talk, one word and another word; in between there is the timeless point. When your consciousness is bent upon finding out that point, then you are said to be kāla grāsa-tatpara, you are bent upon destroying the sphere of time. So, in the near future, there will be no time existing for you. So that yogi is established in that final beatitude of God consciousness, and he achieves that state of nirvāṇa, mokṣa – final liberation. But the question is here: when in this way his individuality is destroyed, individuality is dissolved, he must leave the physical body at that very moment, as soon as that individuality is finished. So how can he say that he is established in God consciousness? So this theory of yours is incorrect! For that, he puts now the answer. भूतकञ्चुकी तदा विमुक्तो भूयः पतिसमः परः ॥४२॥   bhūtakañcukī tadā vimukto bhūyaḥ patisamaḥ paraḥ // 42 //   “He is said to be bhūta kañcukī, these five elements are just like covering for him, and at that moment he is vimukta, ‘absolutely liberated’, and he is patisama, ‘just like Lord Śiva’, and supreme.” And in the course of time when he leaves this physical frame also, he becomes one with Lord Śiva. So, for him, this physical frame is just like a blanket, just like some covering. Not like us, just as we do for our physical body, we insert I-consciousness that, “this is my body, this is me.” I go to some doctor, “Please see my pulse.” But I have no pulse! In fact, if you go into the true sense, I have no pulse – pulse is for the body. I say to the doctor, “See my pulse, I don’t feel well.” But the body is unwell, I am always the same. So this previous sūtra (3.26), in which we have explained, his body is just like that sheath in which we put a sword, like that his body exists. But he does not infuse his I-consciousness in that sheath, i.e., sword is sword and sheath is sheath, separate from it. Hence, when a supreme master reveals to you that supreme [state], from that very moment he is said to be liberated, absolutely liberated, and his remaining portion of his life is just like a yantra, just like a machine. So he is centralized in his God consciousness for eternity afterwards, and his existence of body is just like a machine, nothing else. So, what can we say to that wise person who is established in that supreme brahman only for one second; he becomes liberated, and he liberates the whole universe. In the Netra Tantra also it is said: If one realizes the state of supreme God consciousness only for a fraction of time of – nimeṣa unmeṣa – one twinkling, (i.e., eyes open and shut, that is twinkling), only in that fraction of time if you realize that real state of God consciousness, from that very moment he is said to be liberated, absolutely liberated, he is not to come in this world again. In Kulasāra Śastra also it is said: “O dear Devi, (Sundari, O beautiful Goddess, Devi), it is a wonder how great is the glory and greatness of that real nature of God consciousness. If that real nature of God consciousness travels from one ear to another ear – in sound only, not in actual existence – if that word only travels, that word will absolutely liberate him there and then. This is the greatness of that supreme state of God consciousness.”

"Soft Skies, No Lies" On a rainy day, let the children play All the games inside, come and take a ride We'll be on our way, I won't have to say Find a place to hide, on the countryside Where the soft skies, no lies Blue eyes, what lies? Now I'll have to tell you I think, I think maybe I love you When the sun is down, we can run around On a moonlit night, it'

"Wi$h Li$t"

They want that yacht life under chopper blades
They want those bright lights and Balenci shades
And a fat ass with a baby face
They want it all

They want that complex female character
They want that critical smash Palme d'Or
And an Oscar on their bathroom floor
They want it all

And they should have what they want
They deserve what they want
Hope they get what they want

I just want you
Have a couple kids, got the whole block looking like you
We tell the world to leave us the fuck alone, and they do
Wow, got me dreaming 'bout a driveway with a basketball hoop
Boss up, settle down, got a wish list (Wish list)
I just want you

They want that freedom, living off the grid
They want those three dogs that they call their kids
And that good surf, no hypocrites
They want it all

They want a contract with Real Madrid
They want that spring break that was fuckin' lit
And then that video taken off the internet
They want it all

And they should have what they want
They deserve what they want
I hope they get what they want

I just want you (You, you, yeah)
Have a couple kids, got the whole block looking like you
We tell the world to leave us the fuck alone, and they do
Wow, got me dreaming 'bout a driveway with a basketball hoop
Boss up, settle down, got a wish list (Wish list)

I made wishes on all of the stars
Please, God, bring me a best friend who I think is hot
I thought I had it right once, twice, but I did not (I did not)
You caught me off my guard
I hope I get what I want (Get what I want)
'Cause I know what I want

I just want you, baby
Have a couple kids, got the whole block looking like you (Got 'em looking like you)
We tell the world to leave us the fuck alone, and they do
Wow, got me dreaming 'bout a driveway with a basketball hoop
Boss up, settle down, got a wish list (Wish list)

I just want you
And we could have a couple kids, got the whole block looking like you (You)
We tell the world to leave us the fuck alone, and they do (Yeah)
Wow, and now you got me dreaming 'bout a driveway with a basketball hoop
Boss up, settle down, got a wish list (Wish list)
I just want you

"Never Fade"

I think you fell off of your cloud today
You didn't see it coming or did you
You tried to please everybody
But the sweet breeze swept you away

The sun goes down on a good day
Tomorrow is still an unknown
You think you're all alone in this place
I think you're crazy 'cause I still love you baby

Oh don't fade away baby
Blowing in the wind is getting harder to do
Don't count the days as they leave you
Count them as you find a day new
Don't fade away
Never fade

Hard to breathe, nobody knows it's you
Somebody blows your candle out
You wore a mask, now that's broken too
Everybody else was everything to you

The sun goes down on a good day
Tomorrow is still an unknown
You think everybody wants a fight
I think you're crazy 'cause I still love you baby

Oh don't fade away baby
Blowing in the wind is getting harder to do
Don't count the days as they leave you
Count them as you find a day new
Don't fade away
Never fade

I think you fell out of the sky today
I think you know it's true
You've seen the world, now all you see is me
Tell me now baby what are you gonna do

Oh don't fade away baby
Blowing in the wind is getting harder to do
Don't count the days as they leave you
Count them as you find a day new
Don't fade away
Don't fade away
Don't fade away
Never fade

Davey D: Give a little bit of background on yourself. What got you into hip hop?
2Pac: I'm from the Bronx, NY. I moved to Baltimore where I spent some high school years and then I came to Oaktown. As for hip hop...all my travels through these cities seemed to be the common denominator.

Davey D: 2Pac... Is that your given name or is that your rap name?

2Pac: That's my birth name and my rap name.

Davey D: You lived In Marin City for a little while. How was your connection with hip hop able to be maintained while living there? Was there a thriving hip hop scene in Marin City?
2Pac: Not really..You were just given truth to the music. Being in Marin City was like a small town so it taught me to be more straight forward with my style. Instead of of being so metaphorical with the rhyme where i might say something like...
I'm the hysterical, lyrical miracle
I'm the hypothetical, incredible....
I was encouraged to go straight at it and hit it dead on and not waste time trying to cover things...

Davey D:Why was that?

2Pac In Marin City it seemed like things were real country. Everything was straight forward. Poverty was straight forward. There was no way to say I'm poor, but to say 'I'm po'...we had no money and that's what influenced my style.
Davey D: How did you hook up with Digital Underground?

2Pac: I caught the 'D-Flow Shuttle' while I was in Marin City. It was the way out of here. Shock G was the conductor.

Davey D: What's the D-Flow Shuttle?

2Pac:The D-Flow Shuttle is from the album 'Sons of the P' It was the way to escape out of the ghetto. It was the way to success. I haven't gotten off since...
Davey D: Now let's put all that in laymen's terms

2Pac: Basically I bumped into this kid named Greg Jacobs aka Shock G and he hooked me up with Digital Underground and from there I hooked up with Money B... and from there Money B hooked me up with his step mamma... and from there me and his step mamma started making beats...[laughter]
Me and his step mamma got a little thing jumping off. We had a cool sound, but Shock asked me if I wanted a group. I said 'Yeah but I don't wanna group with Money B's step momma 'cause she's gonna try and take all the profits... She wants to go out there and be like the group 'Hoes with Attitude', but I was like 'Naw I wanna be more serious and represent the young black male'.

So Shock says we gotta get rid of Money B's step mamma. So we went to San Quentin [prison] and ditched her in the 'Scared Straight' program...[laughter. After that Shock put me in the studio and it was on..This is a true story so don't say anything.. It's a true story. And to Mon's step mamma I just wanna say 'I'm sorry, but a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. I'm sorry but it was Shock's idea-Bertha.. but don't worry she can get her half of the profits from the first cut after she finishes doing her jail time. [laughter]

Davey D: What's the concept behind your album 2Pacalypse Now'?
2Pac: The concept is the young Black male. Everybody's been talkin' about it but now it's not important. It's like we just skipped over it.. It's no longer a fad to be down for the young Black male. Everybody wants to go past. Like the gangster stuff, it just got exploited. This was just like back in the days with the movies. Everybody did their little gun shots and their hand grenades and blew up stuff and moved on. Now everybody's doing rap songs with the singing in it.. I'm still down for the young Black male. I'm gonna stay until things get better. So it's all about addressing the problems that we face in everyday society.

Davey D: What are those problems?

2Pac: Police brutality, poverty, unemployment, insufficient education, disunity and violence, black on black crime, teenage pregnancy, crack addiction. Do you want me to go on?

Davey D: How do you address these problems? Are you pointing them out or are you offering solutions?

2Pac: I do both. In some situations I show us having the power and in some situations I show how it's more apt to happen with the police or power structure having the ultimate power. I show both ways. I show how it really happens and I show how I wish it would happen
Davey D: You refer to yourself as the 'Rebel of the Underground' Why so?

2Pac: Cause, as if Digital Underground wasn't diverse enough with enough crazy things in it, I'm even that crazier. I'm the rebel totally going against the grain...I'm the lunatic that everyone refers to. I always want to do the extreme. I want to get as many people looking as possible. For example I would've never done the song 'Kiss U Back' that way.I would've never done a song like that-That's why I'm the rebel.

Davey D: Can talk about your recent encounter with police brutality at the hands of the Oakland PD?

2Pac:We're letting the law do its job. It's making its way through the court system.. We filed a claim...

Davey D:Recount the incident for those who don't know..

2Pac:For everyone who doesn't know, I, an innocent young black male was walking down the streets of Oakland minding my own business and the police department saw fit for me to be trained or snapped back into my place. So they asked for my I-D and sweated me about my name because my name is 'Tupac'. My final words to them was 'f--- y'all' . Next thing I know I was in a choke hold passing out with cuffs on headed for jail for resisting arrest. Yes.. you heard right-I was arrested for resisting arrest.

Davey D:Where is all this now?

2Pac: We're in the midst of having a ten million dollar law suit against the Oakland Police Department. If I win and get the money, then the Oakland Police department is going to buy a boys home, me a house, my family a house and a 'Stop Police Brutality Center' and other little odd things like that..

Davey D:In the video for the song 'Trapped' do you think that would've had the police want to treat you aggressively? After all, the video is very telling especially in the un-edited version where you have a cop get shot.

2Pac: Well the ironic thing is the cops I came across in that incident didn't know about that video. The second thing is that everything I said in that video happened to me. The video happened before the incident. In the video I show how the cops sweat me and ask for my ID and how I can't go anywhere...

Davey D:Let's talk about the movie 'Juice'. How did you get involved? Where's it at? and what's it about?
2Pac: MMM what led me? Well, we have the Freaky Deaky Money B and Sleuth [raod manager for DU]. Money B had an audition for the movie Sleuth [road manager] suggested I also come along so I went. Money B read the script and said to me' this sounds like you- a rebel. he was talking about this character named Bishop. I went in cold turkey, read, God was with me...

Davey D:Have you ever had acting experience before?

2Pac: Actually I went to the school of Performing arts in Baltimore and that's where I got my acting skills.

Davey D:Ok so you weren't a novice when you went up there... So what's the movie about?

2Pac:The movie is about 4 kids and their coming of age.

Davey D:Is it a Hip Hop movie?

2Pac:No, it's not a hip hop movie. It's a real good movie that happens to have hip hop in it. If it was made in the 60s it would've depicted whatever was 'down' in the 60s...My character is Roland Bishop, a psychotic, insecure very violent, very short tempered individual.

Davey D:What's the message you hope is gotten out of the movie?
2Pac: You never know what's going on in somebody's mind. There are a lot of things that add up. There's a lot of pressure on someone growing up. You have to watch it if it goes unchecked. This movie was an example of what can happen...

Davey D:Can you explain what you mean by this?
2Pac:In the movie my character's, father was a prison whore and that was something that drove him through the whole movie...

Davey D: This was something that wasn't shown in the movie?

2Pac: Yes, they deleted this from the film. Anyway this just wrecked his [Bishop's] mind. You can see through everybody else's personality, Bishop just wanted to get respect. He wanted the respect that his father didn't get. Everthing he did, he did just to get a rep. So from those problems never being dealt with led to him ending four people's lives.

Davey D:Do you intend on continuing making movies?

2Pac: It depends on whether or not there are any good parts. I want to challenge myself.

Davey D:What is your philosophy on hip hop? I've heard you say you don't to see it diluted?

2Pac: Well when I said that, it made me think. It brought me to myself. Now I have a different philosophy. Hip Hop when it started it was supposed to be this new thing that had no boundaries and was so different to everyday music. Now it seems like I was starting to get caught up in the mode of what made hip hop come about. I would walk around and hear something and start saying 'That's not Hip Hop'. If someone started singing, I would walk around and say 'That's not Hip Hop'. Well, now I've changed my mind. That could be Hip Hop.As long as the music has the true to the heart soul it can be hip hop. As long it has soul to it, hip hop can live on.

Davey D:I guess my question would be, how do you determine what's soul and what isn't?

2Pac: Well you can tell. The difference between a hit like 'Make You Dance' [C&C Music Factory] and 'My Mind Is Playing Tricks On Me' [Geto Boys]. You have to ask yourself, 'Which song moves you'.

Davey D: Well actually both. Both songs move me

2Pac: Really? well... ok there you go

Davey D:So they both would be Hip Hop, right?

2Pac:I guess so, at least in your opinion. 'The Make You Dance' song didn't move me. But the Geto Boys song did move me

Davey D:Well for the record Bambaataa says both of them are Hip Hop. I asked him what he thought about groups like C&C Music Factory. He said they were part of the Hip Hop family...But that's his philosophy on things. So what's your plans for the next year or so?

2Pac: To strengthen the Underground Railroad. I have a crew called the Underground Railroad and a program called the Underground Railroad...I wanna build all this up, so that by next year you will know the name Underground Railroad...

Davey D:So what's the concept behind The Underground Railroad?

2Pac:The concept behind this is the same concept behind Harriet Tubman, to get my brothers who might be into drug dealing or whatever it is thats illegal or who are disenfranchised by today's society-I want to get them back into by turning them onto music. It could be R&B, hip hop or pop, as long as I can get them involved. While I'm doing that, I'm teaching them to find a love for themselves so they can love others and do the same thing we did for them to others.
Davey D: How many people in the Underground Railroad? Is it a group that intends to keep constantly evolving? Also where are the people who are a part of Underground Railroad coming from?

2Pac: Right now we're twenty strong. The group is going to be one that constantly evolves. The people that are in the UR are coming from all over, Baltimore, Marin City, Oakland, New York, Richmond-all over.
Davey D: What do you think of the Bay Area rap scene compared to other parts of the country?

2Pac: Right now the Bay Area is how the Bronx was in 1981. Everybody is hot. They caught the bug. Everybody is trying to be creative and make their own claim. New York just got to a point where you could no longer out due the next guy. So now you have this place where there isn't that many people to out due. Here you can do something and if it's good enough people will remember you. So that's what's happening. here in the Bay Area, it's like a renaissance.

Davey D: In New York the renaissance era got stopped for a number of reasons in my opinion. What do you think will prevent that from happening in the Bay Area?

2Pac: Well at the risk of sounding biased, I say Digital Underground. They are like any other group. I'll give that to Shock G. He made it so that everything Digital Underground does it helps the Bay Area music scene. It grows and goes to New York and hits people from all over the country. That helps the Bay Area. Our scene is starting to rub off on people. We want everyone to know about Oakland. When other groups come down, like Organized Konfusion or Live Squad and they kick it with Digital Underground, they get to see another side of the Bay Area music scene.It's a different side then if they kicked it with that guy... I don't wanna say his name, but you know who he is he dropped the 'MC' from his name [MC Hammer].

Davey D: So you think Digital Underground will be more strength to the Bay Area rap scene because they help bring national attention. What do you think other groups will have to do?

2Pac: What we have to do is not concentrate so much on one group. We have to focus more on the area. It's not about just building up Too Short, Digital Underground and Tony Toni Tone and say; 'That's it. They're the only groups that can come from the Bay Area'. We have to let the new groups come out. Nobody wants to give the new acts a chance. Everybody wants to only talk about Too Short and Digital Underground...We have to start talking about these other groups that are trying to come in that are coming up from the bottom.

Davey D: When you say 'come up' what do you mean by that?

2Pac: It's like this. Instead of letting them do interviews where nobody ever reads them, let a good newspaper interview them. Instead of putting them on the radio when nobody is ever going to hear them or where nobody is going to hear them, have them where people can hear them and get at them where they had a better chance, just like if they were Mariah Carey.

Davey D: Do you find the Bay Area sound is being respected? Do you find that people are starting to accept it around the country?

2Pac: I feel that the Bay Area sound hasn't even finished coming out. It's starting to get respected more and more everyday.

Davey D: Your brother Moecedes is a rapper for the group Tony Toni Tone. What's the story with him? Are you guys gonna team up?

2Pac: He's in the Underground Railroad. He's also about to come out with another guy named Dana.

Davey D: Who produced your album and are you into producing

2Pac: I co-produced it with the members of the Underground Railroad which is Shock G, Money B, Raw Fusion, Pee Wee, Jay-Z from Richmond, Stretch from the Live Squad. It's really like a life thing-this Underground Railroad. It effects everything we do.

Davey D:Is there anything else we should know about Tupac?
2Pac: Yeah, the group Nothing Gold is coming. My kids are coming out with a serious message...NG is a group coming out that I produce.. All the stuff I say in my rhymes I say because of how I grew up. So to handle that, instead of going to a pyschiatrist, I got a kids group that deals with the problems a younger generation is going through. They put them into rhymes so it's like a pyschology session set to music. It'll make you come to grips with what you actually do..

Davey D: What do you mean by that? Are they preaching?

2Pac: No they're just telling you straight up like Ice Cube or Scarface. They're being blunt and it comes out of akid's mouth. If you're a black man, you're going to really trip out cause they really call you out and have you deal with them...NG will make us have responsibility again. Kids are telling you to have responsibility...
Davey D: What do you think of the current trends in Hip Hop like the gangsta rap, Afrocentric Rap, raggamuffin and the fusion of the singing and rap? Some people call it 'pop rap'.

2Pac: I think all the real shit is gonna stay. It's gonna go through some changes. It's going through a metaphorphis so it will blow up sometimes and get real nasty and gritty, then the leeches will fall off and Hip Hop will be fit and healthy. Hip Hop has to go through all of that, but no one can make judgments until it's over.

Davey D: What do you think the biggest enemies to Hip Hop are right now?

2Pac: Egotistical rappers. They don't wanna open up their brain. Its foul when people are walking around saying things like; 'Oakland is the only place where the real rappers come out. New York is the only place where the real rappers come out. They booty out there or they booty over there...' All of that just needs to die or Hip Hop is gonna have problems. Its gonna be so immature. Thats just conflict in words. We can't be immature we gotta grow.

Davey D: Cool I think we got enough out of you 2Pac.

2Pac: yes I think you got enough

Davey D: Peace.

"2 Of Amerikaz Most Wanted"
(feat. Snoop Doggy Dogg)

[2Pac:]
Up out of there
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
Eh, light that up, Snoop! Why you actin like that?
Ah shit, you done fucked up now
(Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party)
You done put two of America's most wanted in the same motherfuckin' place at the same motherfuckin' time
(Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party)
Y'all niggas about to feel this
(Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party)
Break out the Champagne glasses and the motherfuckin' condoms, have one on us, a'ight?
(Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party)

[Snoop Dogg:]
A toast to the gangsters

[2Pac:]
Picture perfect, I paint a perfect picture
Bomb the hoochies with precision
My intention's to get richer
With the S-N double-O-P, Dogg, my fuckin' homie
You's a cold-ass nigga on them hogs

[Snoop Dogg:]
Sho 'nuff, I keep my hand on my gun
'Cause they got me on the run
Now I'm back in the courtroom, waitin' on the outcome
"Free 2Pac" is all that's on a nigga's mind
But at the same time, it seems they tryin' to take mine
So I'ma get smart and get defensive and shit
And put together a Million March for some gangsta shit

[2Pac:]
So now they got us laced
Two multi-millionaire motherfuckers catchin' cases
Bitches get ready for the throw down
The shit's about to go down
Me and Snoop about to clown
I'm losin' my religion
I'm vicious on these stool pigeons
You might be deep in this game, but you got the rules missin'
Niggas be actin' like they savage
They out to get the cabbage
I've got nothin' but love for my niggas livin' lavish

[Snoop Dogg:]
I've got a pit named Petey, she Nigerina
I've got a house out in the hills right next to Chino
And I think I've got a black Bimmer
But my dream's to own a fly casino
Like Bugsy Siegel, and do it all legal
And get scooped up by the little homie in the Regal
It feels good to you, baby-bubba
You see, this is for the G's and the keys, motherfucker

[2Pac:]
Now follow as we ride
Motherfuck the rest, two of the best from the West side
And I can make you famous
Niggas been dyin' for years, so how could they blame us?
I live in fear of a felony
I never stop bailin' these motherfuckin' G's
If you got it, better flaunt it
Another warrant for two of America's most wanted

[Daz Dillinger (2Pac):]
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
(Nothin' but a gangsta party)
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
(Nothin' but a gangsta party
Ain't nothin' but a motherfuckin' gangsta party)
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
(Nothin' but a gangsta party
Ain't nothin' but a motherfuckin' gangsta party)
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party

[2Pac:]
Now give me fifty feet
Defeat is not my destiny, release me to the streets
And keep whatever's left of me
Jealousy is misery, sufferin' is grief
Better be prepared when you cowards fuck with me
I bust and flee, these niggas must be crazy, what?
There ain't no mercy, motherfuckers who can't fade the thugs
You thought it was, but it wasn't, now disappear
Bow down in the presence of a boss player

[Snoop Dogg:]
It's like Cuz/Blood gang-bangin'
Everybody in the party doin' dope-slangin'
You gotta have papers in this world
You might get your first snatch before your eyes swirl
You doin' your job every day
And then you work so hard 'til your hair turns gray
Let me tell you about life and about the way it is
You see, we live by the gun, so we die by the guns, kids

[2Pac:]
They tell me not to roll with my glock
So now I got a throw-away
Floatin' in the black Benz, tryin' to do a show a day
They wonder how I live with five shots
Niggas is hard to kill on my block
Schemes for currency and dough-related
Affiliated with the hustlers, so we made it
No answers to questions, I'm tryin' to get up on it
My nigga Dogg with me, eternally the most wanted

[Daz Dillinger (2Pac):]
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
(Nothin' but a gangsta party
It ain't nothin' but a motherfuckin' gangsta party)
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
(Nothin' but a gangsta party
It ain't nothin' but a motherfuckin' gangsta party)
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
(Nothin' but a gangsta party
It ain't nothin' but a motherfuckin' gangsta party)
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
(Nothin' but a gangsta party
It ain't nothin' but a motherfuckin' gangsta party)
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party

[2Pac:]
Biatch! Where you at? Where you at?
Ain't nothin' but a gangsta party
Yeah, Death Row

James Franco seems to be everywhere these day in all kinds of different guises. He is a movie star, soap-opera actor, author, director, Yale PhD student, drag model, performance artist, 2011 Best Actor Oscar nominee. Yet even with this eclecticism, the 32-year-old's casting as Allen Ginsberg - the gay Jewish Beat poet who helped lay the foundation for '60s counterculture in America - appears at first glance to be somewhat counter-intuitive.

Franco, who broke through internationally playing Harry Osborn in Sam Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy, admits that he was surprised when the director Gus Van Sant handed him a screenplay for the film Howl, by writer/directors Rob Epstein and Jeffrey Friedman (makers of The Celluloid Closet, an acclaimed documentary about Hollywood's treatment of homosexuality on film).

He had actually been a fan of the Beat generation ever since friends at his high school in Palo Alto, California, turned him on to them at age 15. "When I started acting, I thought it would be great to do a movie about them," he says.

However, Franco always imagined himself playing one of the hipper Beats, like Jack Kerouac, author of On the Road, or his womanising buddy, Neal Cassady. "I never, ever thought I would play Allen Ginsberg . . . I was very, very surprised. And very interested. But I think I had a moment where I just had to consider, 'Okay, I'm very honoured. But can I do it? Am I really the right person?'"

Franco had good reason to wonder. Photographs of Ginsberg from around the mid-'50s period during which Howl is set, reveal a nerdy-looking figure in thick-rimmed glasses, while the actor has the kind of matinee idol looks that have recently seen him cast as Julia Roberts' love interest in Eat Pray Love, and as the face of Gucci men's fragrance line. You could, arguably, imagine the young Woody Allen as Ginsberg, but Franco?

Snapshot
Born: April 19, 1978
Early life: Franco grew up in California with his parents Douclas and Betsy. He dropped out of UCLA to pursue acting.
Career: His first major film was the romantic comedy Whatever It Takes in 2000 and he won a Golden Globe for his portrayal of James Dean in 2001. He has been nominated for an Oscar for 127 Hours
Personal life: Franco has been in a relationship with actress Ahna O’Reilly since 2006
Coincidentally, at the same time as he received the script, Franco was hosting Saturday Night Live for the first time. Their make-up department had just won an Emmy, he says, "so I brought in a picture of Allen Ginsberg and I said, 'If I were going to do a sketch about Ginsberg on your show, how would you make me look like this?' And they said, 'Well, it wouldn't be that hard. We would just comb your hair in a certain way and give you the right glasses. Your colouring is very similar, it's just the nose is a little different and his ears stick out a little more than your ears. So we'd push that a little bit, maybe.' And they were right." He told Epstein and Friedman. "They liked the ears idea. At first we just used putty and then they made some prosthetics" and the process started.

The film revolves around the obscenity trial in America that resulted from the publication of Ginsberg's groundbreaking epic poem, Howl - a celebration of the Beats and an anguished, rebellious fusillade of frankness in the face of repressive attitudes towards homosexuality, among other things, and the forces that alienate people from themselves. The film gives us versions of the poet before and after the poem was written, as well as recreating its first reading at Six Gallery on Fillmore Street, San Francisco, in 1955. Beautifully drawn animated sequences visualise Franco/Ginsberg's words in sequences which, the film's makers acknowledge, offer just one version of the poem's meaning.

Writing Howl was an act of liberation for Ginsberg, who growing up was, as Forward.com's Jay Michaelson put it, "the Jewish Every-teen, a middle-class boy in New Jersey indistinguishable from thousands of others like him". His plan upon enrolling at New York's Columbia University was to become a lawyer. The Ginsberg of the pre-Howl flashbacks in the film is therefore different to the one giving the reading, and the one being interviewed by a journalist in 1957.

"After doing research about his young life," says Franco, who listened to every reading of Howl he could find, "and everything he went through up until the publication of Howl, he was a very confused and insecure young man.

"He was growing up in the '40s and '50s. He was gay, there were no real public role models around for that kind of lifestyle, and in addition to that there were extreme societal pressures; people were being treated in institutions for being gay. He was expelled from Columbia in part for being gay [he slept with Kerouac], and it must have been very, very hard for him."

By eliding the line between the public and the private self in Howl, Ginsberg freed himself; he became more comfortable in his own skin and more confident.

If the poet's Jewishness set him slightly apart from the other Beats, who occasionally mentioned it, Ginsberg himself did not really address the topic in his work until later, in poems such as Yiddishe Kopf and Kaddish, the latter written for his mother, Naomi, who died in a mental institution and was denied a reading of the Kaddish at her funeral for want of a minyan. As for Franco, though his mother, Betsy, was Jewish, his upbringing was largely secular.

"I do feel like I missed out on the Jewish experience," he told Amy Raphael in 2009. "My Jewish friends tell me not to worry… but I like the idea of religion as a source of community."

That same year, Franco experienced a spoof barmitzvah when he was voted Man of the Year by Harvard University's venerable Hasty Pudding theatrical company (think a kind of American Cambridge Footlights). The fake ceremony reportedly featured a Rabbi Spider-Man and Yentl Express dancers who danced in drag to Havah Nagila.

"I don't know if this counts in rabbinical law," Franco quipped, "but if it doesn't, I do plan to have a barmitzvah."

In the meantime, he has another ceremony to think about: on February 27, he will co-host the Oscars with Anne Hathaway, putting him in the unusual position of being both a compère and a nominee for his performance as Aron Ralston, the outdoorsman who escaped from a canyon by cutting his arm off, in 127 Hours.

Whether he will also add Oscar winner to his other roles that night, only time will tell.

Howl opens today.

February 2003—At this point Franco’s still seems like a pretty normal guy. Sure, he’s mid-way through a very successful superhero franchise and is being interviewed by people like Nicolas Cage for Interview, but he hasn’t yet gone back to UCLA to complete his BA. He’s just another run-of-the-mill really, really good looking, college dropout actor.

NICOLAS CAGE: When did you first discover James Dean?

FRANCO: I was aware of him in high school. He still seemed so alive. He was so relevant to us, as teenagers. Then, when I started taking acting seriously, I looked at him more from a student’s perspective.

NICOLAS CAGE: Describe a scenario where you wake up in the morning and you decide you’re not going to act, paint, or anything. You’re just going to relax. How would you do it?

JAMES FRANCO: Never. It’s impossibility. I don’t even like to sleep—I feel as if there’s too much to do.

February 2006—Franco will soon be back at UCLA. For now, he’s trying his hand at big-budget leading men such as Tristan in Tristan & Isolde. Here Franco talks to his former on-screen father, Willem Dafoe, about acting:

WILLAM DAFOE: You seem to inhabit roles really well. What do you find you need to get started?

JAMES FRANCO: I want to make the performance as realistic as possible, unless there’s some strange requirement. Now most of the time that means research, because it’s something like boxing or sword-fighting or doing an accent or playing a pilot.

DAFOE: The cool part of being an actor, right?

FRANCO: Yeah, I got my pilots license, and I got to see what boxing is like and all that stuff. Taking those steps is what gives me the confidence to say, “Okay. I can play this role,” as well as the confidence to fall on my face. But I also feel like there are some roles that don’t need that.

DAFOE: Baby you are my son! [both laugh] I’m agreeing with you.

FRANCO: When I was starting out, doing guest spots on TV, and even commercials, I would go in with a whole crazy wardrobe and some terrible accent. Obviously I was doing too much. If you bring to much flavor to it, it’s absurd. There’s something to just being spontaneous.

October 2008—Francophrenia (the phenomenon, not the film) is spreading and James is beginning to diversify his film and educational pursuits. Step one—landing himself a plum part in a Gus Van Sant’s Milk. Franco and his director discuss other iconic figure pop-culture figures River Phoenix, Andy Warhol and Zac Efron; and improvisation:

JAMES FRANCO: You were going to do a movie with River [Phoenix] about Andy Warhol, right?

GUS VAN SANT: Yeah. River kind of looked like Andy in his younger days. But that project never really went forward. I wanted to set it at Serendipity, the restaurant where all of the art directors and advertising guys and gallery people went.

JAMES FRANCO: The first piece of art I ever bought—when I could afford it—was a Warhol sketch from the period when he was just getting out of doing commercial work and more into art. It’s a sketch of a young guy’s face. I guess the gallery that I bought it from thought I would like it because the young guy kind of looked like James Dean. I don’t know. But I liked it because it was unusual for Warhol. It was kind of before the silk screens or anything that is really recognizable—it’s almost like a fashion drawing, but it’s a portrait.

FRANCO: I just played a stoner in Pineapple Express, and I don’t really smoke weed anymore, so everyone says, “Oh, you looked really high in the movie. How did you do that?” And I say, “Oh, I just pretend the wind is in my eyes.”

VAN SANT: So we haven’t talked about Zac yet.

FRANCO: What is Zac?

VAN SANT: Zac Efron.

FRANCO: Oh. Well, yeah, we can talk about Zac.

VAN SANT: Where did you see him?

FRANCO: I met him for the first time backstage at the MTV Movie Awards. Lucas Grabeel, who is in Milk, is also in High School Musical [2006] with Zac Efron, and so we had been talking about High School Musical a lot. I hadn’t seen it, but my girlfriend was a big fan of the movie—I don’t know why. She was like, “You’ve got to watch it.” And I was like, “All right, I’ll watch it because Lucas is in it.” So I watched it, and I guess I could kind of see the appeal. Some of the songs are kind of catchy. There’s one where Zac is playing basketball, but it’s also like a musical number . . . I don’t know. [laughs] I remember we were all sitting around on the set of Milk and I said, “I saw High School Musical.” I said it like I had never sounded so interested in anything before. Then I think you said that you had tried to get Zac for a small role in Milk.

VAN SANT: Yeah. The pizza guy. He never had time.

FRANCO: Right. So then when I saw him at the MTV Movie Awards, I was like, “Hey, man. Good to meet you, Zac. I really like the movie, and I just worked with Gus, and he tried to get you in his movie.” And Zac was like, “Yeah, yeah. It just didn’t work out.” And I was like, “Well, you should really do a movie with Gus. I think it would be a good contrast to your other stuff.” He’s like, “Yeah, maybe.” And then I was walking away to go back to my seat, and he tapped me on the shoulder and said, “We should do it together, man.” And he, like, gave me a high five. He was really the nicest guy.

VAN SANT: Yeah. He is really nice. We should all do a Judd Apatow movie. You and Zac and me.

FRANCO: Yeah. You should do a movie that Judd produces, and we’ll do it with Zac. What do you think?

VAN SANT: Keep your eyes open for it.

FRANCO: What kind of movie do you think it could be?

VAN SANT: I’ll have to think about that one.

FRANCO: If you have an idea and it’s like me and Zac playing basketball or delivering pizzas or whatever, I’m in.

VAN SANT: So the lines that were written in the script for Pineapple Express-were they basically what we were seeing on the screen?

FRANCO: Oh, no.

GUS VAN SANT: So in that movie, you’re improvising a stoner as well as just pretending there’s wind in your eyes.

FRANCO : Yeah, well, I don’t actually use the wind in my eyes—I just rub my eyes a bit and talk slowly or something. When Seth [Rogan] and me were doing interviews for the movie, everybody would ask us if we were smoking real weed when we were filming. And basically we’d say, “Did you ever see Cheech and Chong’s Up in Smoke? That’s what happens if you really smoke weed and make a movie. You get two guys and no plot and it’s basically like, ‘Yeah! Let’s drive a van made of weed!’ ” And that’s pretty much the movie.

FRANCO: Freaks and Geeks was TV, so there were lines you had to say. There was a little improvisation, but nothing like what Judd [Apatow] and those guys do in their movies now. I think I would try and improvise more than anybody on that show. When we were doing Freaks and Geeks, I didn’t quite understand how movies and TV worked, and I would improvise even if the camera wasn’t on me. I thought I was helping the other actors by keeping them on their toes, but nobody appreciated it when I would trip them up. So I was improvising a little bit back then, but not in a productive way. [laughs]

April 2012—the present day. The apex of Francophrenia? We have no idea. It’s hard to imagine Franco becoming more intriguing to the public. Here, we ask Franco about his most recent experiment, Francophrenia

MICHELLE LHOOQ: People might say that you’re pulling a Joaquin Phoenix with this, except Joaquin took his performative madness even further by bringing it on Letterman. Did you ever think about extending your act beyond General Hospital?

JAMES FRANCO: I think the impulses that have pushed me to do the projects I’ve done for the last five years are maybe similar to what inspired Joaquin to make that mockumentary. In the early part of that movie, he has this little speech, “I hate being an actor, they dress you and put on your makeup and you just feel like a little baby.” And I think that’s something a lot of actors feel. You work really hard to make it, and maybe you get some acclaim, but then you realize there are certain limitations as an actor. Generally you don’t initiate the projects—they’re designed and you’re inserted. Your material is edited by somebody. You feel a lack of power over your work.

TERRY GROSS, host:

This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, James Franco, stars with Sean Penn in the new movie "Milk." Penn plays Harvey Milk, who became the first gay man elected to public office in the U.S. when he won a seat on San Francisco's Board of Supervisors in 1977. Before completing his first year in office, he was assassinated by fellow supervisor Dan White.

James Franco plays Milk's lover, Scott Smith. Together, they moved to San Francisco, set up a camera shop in the Castro, and helped transform the neighborhood into the gay capital of the city. Franco co-starred in the short lived but terrific TV series "Freaks and Geeks." After playing the rebellious high-school heartthrob in that series, he played the ultimate rebellious heartthrob, James Dean, in a telemovie about the iconic actor. In "Spiderman," Franco played Peter Parker's best friend and the son of Spiderman's enemy, Green Goblin. Franco starred with Seth Rogen in last summer's comedy "Pineapple Express," a stoner film meets action film. In a cameo in the film "Knocked Up," and a series for the website Funny or Die, Franco has mocked his own image. We started our interview talking about "Milk."

James Franco, welcome to Fresh Air. The characters in the movie, for the most part, are real people that existed. And for some of the characters, like Harvey Milk, there's a lot of archival footage and documentation so that Sean Penn could base his performance on that. But as far as I know, the person you play, Scott Smith, wasn't nearly as well documented. I mean, the screenwriter of the movie said that there was very little in terms of film footage and things like that for you to base your performance on. So, what did you do to create the character? Did you talk with people who knew him?

Mr. JAMES FRANCO (Actor): Yeah. When I heard that Gus was doing the movie, I didn't really know anything about Harvey Milk, which I found shocking and sad because I grew up in the Bay Area, in Palo Alto, 45 minutes away from San Francisco. And I heard Gus was doing the movie, and I started doing some research and found out what, you know, an important story this was.

And as far as, like, the research, you know, there's some great sources on Harvey Milk in the time, Randy Shilts' book "The Mayor of Castro Street" and the Oscar-winning documentary "The Times of Harvey Milk." And like you said, Scott isn't - doesn't play a huge part in either of those. In the documentary, you know, he shows up for about five seconds. I think Harvey and Scott are at the Gay Pride Parade, and they kiss, and that's it. So, I, you know, I couldn't build a character on that either.

And so, it was really a matter of just talking to a lot of people that had worked with Harvey and Scott and were friends with Scott. And I went to Rob Epstein, the director of "The Times of Harvey Milk," and I asked him if he had any extra footage that didn't make it into his documentary. And so, he had a pre-interview with Scott Smith from 30, like, 28 years ago on a film reel, and he found that in some old vault for me and transferred it to DVD. And so, I could finally really hear what Scott sounded like and, you know, see how he moved and everything. So, I had the - and then, I had the outside and the inside.

GROSS: Are we past the point where I have to ask if it's risky to play a gay character and if that could adversely affect your career?

Mr. FRANCO: I don't know. I mean, yeah, it certainly seems like, you know, times have changed. I think as far as straight actors playing gay roles, "Brokeback Mountain" was a big breakthrough. I'm pretty sure when they were casting that movie that I think the story is, like, you know, 10 to 15 other actors turned it down. I don't know if that's true or not. But after that movie, I think some of the hesitancy of straight actors to, you know, play gay roles has been dissipated.

But you know, that's not even the reason I took it on. I just, you know, I've been the biggest fan of Gus Van Sant forever, you know, even before I started acting. I would just watch "My Own Private Idaho," you know, repeatedly just in high school. And then when I did start acting, you know, sometimes people ask you, like, what's the one role that you wish you could have played? And I think it would probably have been River Phoenix's role in that movie. And so to play, you know, a gay character in a Gus Van Sant movie sounded like, you know, a fantastic thing to me. So, I had no fear of playing this role.

GROSS: Did Gus Van Sant want to get assurances from you that you'd be OK kissing Sean Penn in scenes?

Mr. FRANCO: Well, I read the script, so I knew it was coming. So, I guess one thing that happened was that after I agreed to do the script, there was a rewrite, and I read the rewrite, and one of the changes were that there were more kissing scenes, and there was like, you know, a big love scene on, like, page five. And you know, I was all prepared for the other scenes, the kissing scenes, but I said, well, Gus, well, you're adding more, what's going on? And he was very smart, and he said, you know, Sean Penn is going to be playing a gay character, and you're playing - you know, you're both straight actors playing gay characters. And in the back of people's minds, they're probably going to be thinking like, all right, when is Sean going to kiss a dude? And so...

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: You might as well just get it out of the way, so people can get beyond it and, you know, really engage with the story. And I think he was right.

GROSS: Yes, this is sort of interesting...

Mr. FRANCO: I could tell you a little bit more about the kissing if you want...

GROSS: Yeah, go ahead, yeah, yeah.

Mr. FRANCO: The funny thing is right before we started filming in San Francisco, there was a show at the SF MoMA of this artist, Douglas Gordon, a great artist. He does everything, but some of his best pieces are his video pieces, and this was - it was called, like, Everything Up Until Now. And it was all of his video pieces in one room. And so, Gus went his DP, Harris Savides, and there was one piece where this couple is kissing, a young man and a young woman were kissing on the street, and I think it lasted about three minutes.

And Gus told me the story later. He turned to Harris, and he said, wow, look at that kiss. It's so natural. It looks so real. You know, that's what we need for the movie, you know? We don't want movie kisses; we want our actors to look real when they're kissing. How do you think Douglas did that? And Harris said, like, well, you know, they're probably really kissing. It's just a couple that he saw kissing and shot them. And that night, Gus had dinner with Douglas Gordon. They both - I guess they knew each other. They both had done "Psycho" pieces, you know? Gus remade the movie, and Douglas has this piece called "24 Hour Psycho" where he slowed "Psycho" down...

GROSS: Oh, right, right. I read about it. Yeah.

Mr. FRANCO: So, it would last 24 hours.

GROSS: Mm-hm.

Mr. FRANCO: And so, he asked Douglas, you know, how did you get that kiss to look so real? It must have been just a couple you shot, right? And then Douglas said no, no. I hired two actors who didn't know each other, and I had them kiss for 12 hours. And then, I took the best three minutes to put in there.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: So, Gus told me the story, and he said, so, yeah, you and Sean, huh? And I - and I knew he was kind of kidding, but not exactly, because the Douglas Gordon piece actually, like, inspired this shot in the movie that hadn't been in the script where Sean and I are just on the sidewalk like kissing for, like, at least a full minute. The shot - I don't think it's a minute in the film, but we - the takes were, like, at least a minute, if not longer. And that - I don't think I've ever kissed anybody on camera for that long.

In addition to that, there were, like, 300 people out on Castro Street behind the camera just watching. And it was, you know, the first kiss that was filmed in the movie. So, it felt like there is a lot of pressure on that kiss, and I think - you know, you can kind of just make your mind blank for about 30 seconds. But you know, after that, I really think I thought, well, here I am kissing Spicoli. I was just thinking - that's really what I thought.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: Like, wow - I was thinking of Sean Penn in the beach, you know, in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High." And just like, hey, dude, you know, I saved Brooke Shields or whatever. And that's what I was thinking, and like, I cannot believe that I went from a kid watching that to this. And...

GROSS: Well, Sean Penn is such, like, the method actor. Did you both, like, talk through the scene before doing it? And did he prepare for it differently than you prepared for it?

Mr. FRANCO: Well, I mean, you don't really prepare for a kissing scene. I don't - I mean, I've never - I've been asked that a lot, like, did you and Sean do preparation? Like, and I'm thinking, if you think about it, like, if I said to one of my female co-stars in another movie, like, hey, why don't we go rehearse this love scene in my hotel room a bit?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: I don't think it would fly. And so, you just don't really rehearse kissing scenes whether it's male or the female. And there's not really much to talk about, you know? You kind of both know how to kiss, you assume, and you just do it. I guess if - I think Sean took some breath mints, and you just do it.

GROSS: My guest is James Franco. He stars opposite Sean Penn in the new movie "Milk." We'll talk more after a break. This is Fresh Air.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: My guest is James Franco, and he co-stars in the new movie, "Milk," in which Sean Penn plays Harvey Milk, the first out-of-the-closet gay man to be elected to public office in the United States. Now, you're going to college now in addition to making movies. You're getting your graduate degree...

Mr. FRANCO: Yes...

GROSS: From Columbia, in what? Writing, is it?

Mr. FRANCO: Well, I'm going to several schools. So, yes, I am going to Columbia for the MFA Fiction Writing Program, and then, I'm studying directing at the NYU Tisch Grad School. And then - I'm also taking fiction writing at Brooklyn College.

GROSS: Wow. That's a lot of work. You know, I think a lot of people who have reached your stature as an actor would say, well, I don't have to go to graduate school. I'm already doing it, so why should I go to school? So, let me ask you why you are going to school since you already have a very successful career. A lot of people drop out when they've reached, you know, the point you're at as opposed to going to school, three schools no less.

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah. I did leave school when I started acting. I mean, I wasn't successful, but I moved to L.A. from Palo Alto to go to UCLA, and I left after a year because I was not in the theater program. My parents didn't let me apply. And once I got to L.A., I wanted to act, and they wouldn't let me audition for the theater program until I was a junior. And I just, you know, that seemed like a lifetime away. And so, I left school and went to acting school in North Hollywood, and I acted for eight years. And then after awhile, you know, for a lot of reasons acting wasn't completely satisfying. I was very grateful, you know, that I had a career and I could support myself as an actor, but I just needed something more.

I went back to school to write, and I guess, based on my experiences with acting, you know, I went to acting school for like eight years, and for me, hard work just seemed to pay off. And so I thought, I - if I wanted to be serious about writing, then I should be around other writers. And you know, some people - like, there's a romantic notion, like, well, if you want to be a writer, just write. But I don't know - I don't know if this is true, but I had a professor at UCLA who just wrote a book on this very thing, and I think it turns out that, like - I could be wrong, but I think something like 90 percent of authors that are fiction authors that are being published today went through MFA programs. So, I don't know, but it certainly does a lot for me to be in school.

GROSS: On "Saturday Night Live," when you hosted, you did an opening monologue about how your dream - just like any other student at Columbia - anyway, it was very funny because of course, you're not. But I'm thinking...

Mr. FRANCO: Well, I said I was living in the dorms. I don't live in the dorm.

GROSS: No. I couldn't imagine you living in the dorms. But I'm thinking how self-conscious I would be if I were in your shoes, because once you're famous and you're sitting in a class with a bunch of other people, I would imagine people are either waiting for you to be incredibly brilliant or to make a fool of yourself and show, well, you're not all that.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: So, like, what kind of, like, peculiar pressures do you feel are on you as a student now?

Mr. FRANCO: Well, for the most part, it's actually pretty great. I - you know, the writing programs, and to a certain extent, the film program, they're run in a workshop fashion. And so, the group becomes pretty intimate, and people get to know me, and I like to think that they forget about me as an actor. I don't know. They certainly don't really bring it up. And I get the feeling, like, at the film school if I - if I ever bring up any movie that I've acted in, like, don't - you know, nobody wants to hear about it really.

And I guess when I was at UCLA, I felt a lot of pressure to work hard because I, you know, I was going back to undergrad, and so I was older than most of the people there. And so, I didn't want anybody to think that I was like sliding by. And so, I took a lot of extra courses. I mean, I was taking classes that I was very interested in with professors that I was very interested in working with, but I - like, the cap on the number of units that a student can take in a quarter is 19 and in that last quarter, I took 62 units.

GROSS: Oh, geez.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: And you know, most - it was mostly because it was just, like, my last quarter and there were so many teachers I wanted to be in class with. But I'm sure part of it was just, like...

GROSS: Showing off.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: I didn't want anybody - I didn't want - no, I know I'm showing off now. It's kind of ridiculous.

GROSS: No, no, no. I'm kidding.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: OK. I did break the record. I'm a little proud of that. I broke the record for the number of units in a class. But I didn't want anyone to think that I was, like - you know, I had it easy or something.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is actor James Franco, and he's now co-starring in the new movie "Milk." This summer, you starred in "Pineapple Express," which I just thought was a wonderful film. And you starred in it with Seth Rogen, and you're, like, the real stoner in the movie. Well, you both are, but you're the person who, like, sells the marijuana.

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah, I'm the dealer, yes.

GROSS: You're the dealer, and you're selling, like, potent stuff, called Pineapple Express. And let's just start with a clip.

Mr. FRANCO: That was a good voice right there.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Yeah.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Yeah. Let's just start with a clip from the film. And this is from early in the movie. Seth Rogen is a process server; his job is to hand-deliver legal papers to people.

Mr. FRANCO: Right.

GROSS: And, you're the dealer. So, he shows up at your door one day to buy some marijuana from you, and he's on his way to, like, serving a subpoena. So, he's wearing a suit, and you're surprised to see him that dressed up. Here's the scene.

(Soundbite of movie "Pineapple Express")

Mr. JAMES FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) What's up with the suit?

Mr. SETH ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) Well, I'm a process server, so I have to wear a suit.

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) Wow. You're a servant, like a butler, a chauffeur?

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) No. No. What? No. I'm not, like - no, I'm a...

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) Shine shoes?

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) I'm a process server. I like...

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) In process.

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) I work for a company that's, like, hired by lawyers to, like, hand out legal documents, like subpoenas to people who don't want them. So, I've got to wear...

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) Subpoenas.

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) Like, disguises sometimes just to make them admit that they're themselves so I can served them the papers.

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) Disguise?

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) Kind of, I guess. It's a hell of a job.

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) That's cool, man.

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) Like, a day-to-day basis, it's fine...

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) Got a great job where you don't do anything.

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) That's what I say.

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) I wish I had that.

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) Are you kidding? You - you do have the easiest job on Earth.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) Yeah, yeah, that's true.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) You didn't think of that, huh?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) I do have a good job.

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) Yeah, you do nothing.

Mr. FRANCO: (As Saul Silver) Thanks, man.

Mr. ROGEN: (As Dale Denton) No problem.

GROSS: You are so funny in this film. I mean, you're so - you're so kind of, like, sweet and dumb at the same time. And there's some incredible...

Mr. FRANCO: But I have high aspirations. I want to be a - I want to be an architect.

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. FRANCO: Of some sort and build off-ramps, highway off-ramps and septic tanks.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: And you have some great moments of physical comedy in it. You take a lot of physical abuse in this movie.

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah, yeah. As far as the physical abuse, you know, I had a feeling going into the movie that there would be some injuries just because, you know, I've been on, like, the "Spiderman" movies that, you know, have very big budgets. I think "Spiderman 3" had one of the biggest budgets ever, and you take a lot of time to do those action scenes. Like, you know, we take a month or more to do one action scene in "Spiderman." On "Pineapple Express," you know, I'm reading the script and there's like a lot of - a lot of action for a comedy. I mean, they call it an action-comedy. But there's, you know, there wasn't a lot of - there wasn't a huge budget, and there wasn't a lot of time to do them.

And I just knew in the back of my mind, I was thinking, oh, man, we are going to get hurt. And the actors ended up doing - you know, we ended doing a lot of our own stunts. And you know, I - I don't know - ran into a tree. There's that scene where we're running through the woods and I ran into a tree. Well, I actually ran into the tree. But not only that, there was a pad on the tree that I guess was supposed to protect me, but it was screwed in with exposed washers in each corner. And so, I not only hit the tree, I hit, like, a washer. So, I had, like, a - and the reason I knew I hit the washer is that the cut was crescent-shaped.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: And so - and you know, it was kind of I guess my fault, but you know, the guy - ah, whatever. But - and then Seth, like, I think he sprained his finger. He had to go to the hospital for his finger. There's a scene where I hit Danny over the head with a bong, and yeah, it was a breakaway bong. But by that point - I mean, I even warned Danny McBride. I was like, look, Violet(ph), you know, just based on the way things have been going, I - you know, I'm going to hit you in the right spot, but I think you're going to get hurt. And he was like, do it, do it!

And I guess because it was, you know, weighted with water or something, sure enough, like, as soon as I hit him, you look at him in the scene because it's - it's the take that he actually got hit, and his eyes are like, dude, look like really dilated or something. But I think it was worth it just because we're not - one thing you - that can happen with stuntmen is they're very, you know, they're well-trained at - you know, with fighting and movie fighting, and so they look very slick when they're fighting. We don't necessarily look that sleek, you know? And so, the fights become comedic.

GROSS: James Franco will be back in the second half of the show. He's now starring opposite Sean Penn in the new movie "Milk," about Harvey Milk. I'm Terry Gross, and this is Fresh Air.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: Coming up, our book critic Maureen Corrigan reviews Toni Morrison's new novel, "A Mercy," and we continue our conversation with actor James Franco and talk about his role on "Freaks and Geeks" and his own adventures in high school.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: This is Fresh Air. I'm Terry Gross back with James Franco. He stars opposite Sean Penn in the new movie "Milk," about Harvey Milk, the first openly gay man to be elected to public office in the U.S. Franco also starred in the TV high-school series "Freaks and Geeks," played James Dean in the telemovie about the iconic actor, played the son of Spiderman's enemy Green Goblin, and was the stoner drug dealer in last summer's comedy, "Pineapple Express."

Seth Rogen, who you starred with in "Pineapple Express," is someone you met in your first big role, which was in the series "Freaks and Geeks," the sadly short-lived series "Freaks and Geeks," which was set in high school. And that's where you also met Paul Feig and Judd Apatow. How did you get the part in "Freaks and Geeks"? Were you still in high school or just out of high school?

Mr. FRANCO: No. Seth, I think, was still in high school. I don't think - I don't think...

GROSS: Yeah, he was.

Mr. FRANCO: He finished high school.

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah.

GROSS: It - right. Exactly, he dropped out, I think.

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah, he's one of the smartest dropouts I've ever met. I was a little older. I was I think 20 when I auditioned, and I - you know, I'd done little things here and there. I think I did, like, "Pacific Blue," which was like "Baywatch" on, like, bikes and roller blades and stuff like that.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: And you know, little bits here and there. And they just did a huge casting call. I think they met a lot of young actors, and they were really smart. They, you know, they had a script for the pilot, but I think that they just looked for actors that they really liked and not really people that would fit their script exactly. So, my character in this script didn't have a last name, just Daniel. And the description - I still have it, the original draft - it says Daniel - he's Latino with Peter Frampton hair.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: And so, I'm not exactly that, and - but they just liked me. And so, they put me in that role and when the show got picked up, they changed the name to Daniel Desario, so I guess I became Italian. And then they, you know, they kind of wrote the characters around the actors, although I wasn't exactly like Daniel in high school, but I guess they thought I could play that very well.

GROSS: Were the scripts in the storylines at all like your high-school experiences growing up in Palo Alto?

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah, to a certain extent. I got in a lot of trouble; I mean, it was silly trouble, guess as much as trouble as you can get in, in Palo Alto.

GROSS: For what?

Mr. FRANCO: I got arrested for graffiti. I got arrested - a lot of, like, underage drinking, drunk in public, shoplifting, you know, your various, like, suburban arrests, I guess. And...

GROSS: Let's stop for a moment. What did you shoplift?

Mr. FRANCO: Oh, gosh, that was ridiculous. I don't know - for some reason when I was in junior high school, my friends and I had, like, a cologne-stealing ring.

GROSS: Cologne?

Mr. FRANCO: Well, yeah, I guess - I didn't even really wear it, but it's kind of, I guess, it's ironic. I just did the Gucci cologne ad, and I was the cologne thief in junior high. We would go around to all the department stores and they have, like, the tester bottles out on a counter, so it was, like, really easy to steal. And then we'd take them to the school and keep them in our gym locker and sell them to people. And for a while, it was really hip to wear, like, Drakkar Noir and stuff like that. We could sell it.

GROSS: It was a cologne-smuggling ring.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah, and then one day, the assistant principal found out about it and then, like, went into the locker room and busted our lockers open with a crowbar, and we were caught. And actually, I think I was on vacation or something. I don't know why I was gone from school, but I was in Hawaii. And he had called the police, and they thought I had, like, jumped the city or whatever and bailed out of town to get away from, you know, my cologne stealing.

GROSS: So, you were telling us you were getting in trouble, and these are some examples of the things that got you in trouble.

Mr. FRANCO: Oh, yeah, yeah.

GROSS: What kind of circle were you in, in high school?

Mr. FRANCO: I tried to be an athlete. I played a lot of soccer when I was younger, but as soon as I got to high school I was on the football team for about a minute, and it just was not my thing and I quit. So, I got into, like - I don't know what we were, I guess, just the troublemaking crowd. But I guess, you know, a couple of my friends were really into literature. That's when I really started reading seriously. So, that's when I started reading "On the Road" and Ginsberg and Burroughs and all the Beats. And then, when I got into a certain amount of trouble, I knew I had to stop.

I mean, I was, like, a ward of the court after a while. You know, it was past probation. It was like I didn't belong to my parents. So, I guess if I jaywalked I would go to a juvenile hall or something. So, I had to change my ways, and I didn't know what to do. I didn't want to play sports or anything. I had to occupy my time with something, so that's when I really started painting. So, every day after school, I'd go to this art league and either do portraiture or draw naked models from, like, 3:30 to 10 everyday.

GROSS: Well, I want to play a scene from "Freaks and Geeks." The series is set in a high school. And there's a girl in "Freaks and Geeks" who has a real crush on you, and she's very smart, and you're not a good student. And in this episode, she's tutoring you for a math test.

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah.

GROSS: And what you do is that you steal a copy of the test so that you have the answers in advance.

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah.

GROSS: And then you want her to help you cover up. And so, you're kind of explaining to her how she has to help you do this, and she kind of realizes that you're playing her and we'll pick it up from there.

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah.

(Soundbite of TV show "Freaks and Geeks")

Ms. LINDA CARDELLINI: (As Lindsay Weir) You're manipulating me.

Mr. FRANCO: (As Daniel Desario) What?

Ms. CARDELLINI: (As Lindsay Weir) You're manipulating me.

Mr. FRANCO: (As Daniel Desario) No, I'm not.

Ms. CARDELLINI: (As Lindsay Weir) Yes, you are. And you know, it's really hard to say no to you, but I have to. I'm sorry. I can't go in there and lie. I'm not going to.

Mr. FRANCO: (As Daniel Desario) OK, fine. Don't lie.

Ms. CARDELLINI: (As Lindsay Weir) What?

Mr. FRANCO: (As Daniel Desario) No, let's go in there, we'll tell them what we did. What's the difference? You'll get a nice slap on the wrist, and I'll get, what, suspended, expelled?

Ms. CARDELLINI: (As Lindsay Weir) That is not fair, Daniel.

Mr. FRANCO: (As Daniel Desario) What do you think, I want to be terrible at school? Do you think I like it? I wish I was as smart as you. I wish it all came easy to me, but it doesn't. You know, when I was in 6th grade, they told us when we got to junior high it would be either track one, track two or track three. Track one is the smart kids. Track two is the normal kids. Track three is the dumb kids. And what do you think I got? How do you think it feels to be told you're dumb when you're 11 years old?

Ms. CARDELLINI: (As Lindsay Weir) You are not dumb.

Mr. FRANCO: (As Daniel Desario) I just wanted them to prove them wrong, just once.

GROSS: That's actually a really funny scene, because we learn later that this is, like, the speech you give to people...

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: When you're trying to get their sympathy and get off the hook and not take responsibility for your actions.

Mr. FRANCO: Right, right. It's all acting, yeah.

GROSS: It's all acting. And really, I thought that that scene was, like, your character kind of borrowing from James Dean, who you later played in a made-for-TV movie, and Marlon Brando in the "I coulda been a contender" scene.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: Right, right, right, right.

GROSS: Did you think of it that way when you were playing this?

Mr. FRANCO: Not really. I guess, I - even before I played James Dean, I, you know, I did love his work, and you know, I'd study it and Brando, certainly, and Cliff, those were like the big three. So, maybe they were kind of influencing it, or I'd certainly seen all the Dean movies, like "On the Waterfront," probably 50 times each by that point. But I don't know. I think I was just, I don't know, drawing on my inner dumb guy. It's weird. I play a lot of dumb guys.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: And what's funny is in high school, my, you know, my dad works in Silicon Valley, and is, like, a math freak, so he actually, like, rammed math down my throat. So, I tested out of math. I didn't have to take it in college because of all the work my dad did, and thank God, I haven't studied it since high school.

GROSS: My guest is James Franco. He's now starring opposite Sean Penn in the new movie "Milk." We'll talk more after our break. This is Fresh Air.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: My guest is James Franco. He stars opposite Sean Penn in the new movie "Milk." He also starred in the TV series "Freaks and Geeks," played James Dean in a telemovie about the actor, played the son of Spiderman's enemy, Green Goblin, and was the stoner and dealer in the comedy "Pineapple Express." One of the things you've done over the years is a lot of really funny sketches and scenes in other people's movies in which you mock yourself or you mock serious acting, and you've done a series for the Funny or Die website...

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah.

GROSS: Of sketches called "Acting with James Franco," in which you give acting tips to your younger brother.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah.

GROSS: And it's kind of like a send-up of acting classes and of the Method. And one of them is all about, like, James Dean in "Rebel Without a Cause," and you go through a scene with your brother that's a reenactment of a scene from "Rebel Without a Cause." Describe the scene that you're reenacting in this.

Mr. FRANCO: Oh, yeah. There's a scene in "Rebel" where James Dean gives Sal Mineo his jacket, and you know, back in the '50s, I guess, you couldn't be explicit about gay characters. And so, it's not that subtle, but I think Sal's character is kind of in love with Dean's character. And so, when Sal takes the jacket, I guess he kind of, like, sniffs it or, like, rubs it on his face or something, like, adoringly. And so, the joke was that I was going to, you know, make my brother perform that exact action.

GROSS: You're bullying him...

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah, yeah.

GROSS: Into adoring you. And so, I just want to hear - play that scene from your Funny or Die video.

(Soundbite of "Funny or Die" online video)

Mr. J. FRANCO: Just rub the jacket against your face and smell it.

Mr. DAVY FRANCO: Why would I want to smell the jacket and rub it against my face?

Mr. J. FRANCO: Because that's what he did, because he's in love with James Dean.

Mr. D. FRANCO: That's, I mean, it's typical, man. You give me the worst characters again, and you get to be James Dean, of course. Of course, you get to be James Dean.

Mr. J. FRANCO: Of course, of course, I get to be James Dean. Who else is going to be James Dean?

Mr. D. FRANCO: You're such a good actor you can play him, and I'll play James Dean.

Mr. J. FRANCO: You can't play James Dean. I'm James Dean. Actors sniff jackets.

Mr. D. FRANCO: OK. Go on.

Mr. J. FRANCO: Actors act. Actors sniff jackets if they need to sniff jackets. Marlon Brando sniffed jackets.

Mr. D. FRANCO: OK.

Mr. J. FRANCO: He sniffed pants. He did.

Mr. D. FRANCO: OK.

Mr. J. FRANCO: You're a "Rebel Without a Cause"? What's your cause? Not sniffing jackets? Sniff it.

Mr. D. FRANCO: You sniff it.

Mr. J. FRANCO: You sniff it.

Mr. D. FRANCO: No.

Mr. J. FRANCO: Just what I thought.

Mr. D. FRANCO: OK.

Mr. J. FRANCO: You don't know how to act.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: I think that's so funny. Is he really your younger brother, the person who's doing the...

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's Davy, my younger brother. We were - I went to UCLA. He went to USC, and he started acting a couple of years ago, and he's been doing pretty well. If I ever taught acting, I like to think I'd be a little bit nicer of a teacher.

GROSS: I think you're also, in the Funny or Die videos, "James Franco on Acting," you're kind of sending up acting school and acting pretensions. Like, there's one in which you're teaching your brother how to cry and how to, like, use an emotion from within. And every time he comes up with an emotion, you're telling him, no, that's too trivial. You can't use that.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah, yeah.

GROSS: It's so, kind of, clueless and insulting. It's really funny. Were there a lot of acting pretensions that bothered you when you were in acting school?

Mr. FRANCO: I learned a lot of good things in my school. I've audited at a lot of other schools, and I guess, after awhile, I got a little tired of the acting school atmosphere, where it's really tricky, because as an actor in the classroom, you know, you're revealing so much. And teachers are - you know, they're not just critiquing like a painting or a piece of work. It's, like - it's you and it's your emotions that they're working with. And so, it becomes a very weird kind of intimate space.

And there's some, like, acting schools - thank goodness, not the one I was at - but you know, they'll ask things, like, in front of the whole class, like, have you ever had an abortion? And it's just, like, what? Wow! And so it becomes so strange and almost - even despite themselves sometimes, teachers become these gurus just because actors have revealed so much to them, and I'd like - you know, I used to think, like, oh, you know, it's not going to happen to me. I've got my own life. But you go in there and you work, you know, year after year with these people, and you can't help but become really engrossed in that world. And so, I got a little scared of that after awhile. I just - I wanted to be out. I learned a lot of good things but after awhile, it was too much.

GROSS: Did you study the Method?

Mr. FRANCO: Not exactly. The Method, I guess, according to Strasberg, is something kind of different than what we learned, but it seems like when people say, do you - are you a Method actor? They are implying, do you behave as your character when the camera is not rolling? And I guess I did, kind of, on James Dean or something, but it doesn't really help me if people, like, would come up to me and say, hey, James Dean. You know, it doesn't do anything for me to, like, talk about my life as if I'm James Dean to other people when we're not rolling. I more just kind of keep to myself if it's a serious role and just try and kind of, I don't know, stay focused, but not really display that I'm, you know, the character all the time.

GROSS: You were talking like you're not the kind of Method actor who has to stay in character even when you're not on camera. In fact, you know, I've heard that when you're on the set, you sometimes are reading a novel. And I'm wondering if that kind of is a voyage into a completely different story and emotional space that can be distracting, like, if it's sometimes good and sometimes bad to immerse yourself in another story like that.

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah, I do read a lot on the set. In the last couple of years, a lot of it was just homework.

GROSS: Right.

Mr. FRANCO: I mean, I shot "Spiderman 3" and "Pineapple" and "Milk" all while I was at UCLA. So, that was just homework I needed to get done. I mean, if it's a very intense scene or, you know, demands a lot of focus, I mean, I'm not going to sit down and read a book. But you know, movies have long setup periods, and some longer than others. I mean, I would go to "Spiderman 3" and, you know, be there 12 hours, and probably work, like, be actually on camera for, like, a minute, you know, total, you know, in a day. And so, that's just a lot of time for - to do whatever, so rather than, you know, catch up on watching "The Hills" or whatever you could do on your trailer, I just read.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Now, I read that you do so much research for films, that, for instance, for the movie "Flyboys," you earned your pilot's license; for the movie "Annapolis," you did eight months of boxing training; and for the movie, "Tristan and Isolde," you studied sword fighting for eight months. And all these movies were flops.

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: So, what's the moral of the story in terms of, like, committing to incredible research for a film? Yeah, go ahead.

Mr. FRANCO: Oh, the moral, well, you know, I went into "Annapolis" as a young actor hoping that it would be "Raging Bull."

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. FRANCO: Now, that sounds kind of ridiculous, but that's how I tried to apply myself.

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. FRANCO: You know, I'd box every day for eight months. I would, you know, spar with pros. I mean, you know, they went very, very easy on me and actually like, you know, hurt me sometimes when they weren't going so easy. But you know, I worked as hard as I could with the intention of making, you know, a movie with, you know - and the best is that, oh, yeah, I'd be like a young "Raging Bull." But it wasn't. I mean, that wasn't the movie. I was ridiculous in thinking that it would be something like that. It was a completely different kind of story.

And, so, no matter how hard I worked, I could have boxed for five years, it was never going to be that. And so I guess now, it's just - it's a matter of being really clear about what kind of movie I'm getting into. And you know, I still work really hard, but I like to think I'm a little smarter about at least the type of movie I'm getting into. And if, you know, if it turns out to be a failure, at least, you know, a box-office failure, at least I start movies with people that I believe in, and people with visions, you know, that I believe in. And so, if it doesn't, kind of, come together in the right way, at least I was doing it because I believed in the person and in the movie.

GROSS: James Franco, it's really been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.

Mr. FRANCO: Yeah, it was great.

GROSS: James Franco stars opposite Sean Penn in the new movie "Milk." Coming up, Maureen Corrigan reviews Toni Morrison's new novel, "A Mercy." This is Fresh Air.

Yesterday was a special day around my house. It was back-to-school day for my girls. Sasha started second grade and Malia began 5th. I know Malia was really embarrassed when I walked her to the classroom, but I did it anyway because she's still Daddy's girl. And seeing them back at school was a reminder not only that another year had passed and that they're growing up a little faster than I'd sometimes like. It was also a reminder of all the other parents who are dropping their children off at school, and all the other kids who are getting ready for another year of classes.

Every four years, we hear candidates talk about the vital importance of education; about how improving our schools is key to the future of our children and the future of our country. Every four years, we hear about how this time, we're going to make it an urgent national priority. Remember the 2000 election, when George W. Bush promised to be the "education President"?

But just as with energy independence and health care, the urgency of upgrading public education for the 21st century has been talked to death in Washington. And that failure to act has put our nation in jeopardy.

Well, the day of reckoning is here. Our kids and our country can't afford four more years of neglect and indifference. At this defining moment in our history, America faces few more urgent challenges than preparing our children to compete in a global economy. The decisions our leaders make about education in the coming years will shape our future for generations to come. They will help determine not only whether our children have the chance to fulfill their God-given potential, or whether our workers have the chance to build a better life for their families, but whether we, as a nation, will remain in the 21st century the kind of global economic leader that we were in the 20th century.

The rising importance of education reflects the new demands of our new world. In recent decades, revolutions in communications and information technology have broken down barriers that once kept countries and markets apart, creating a single, global economy that is more integrated and interconnected than ever before. In this economy, companies can plant their jobs wherever there's an internet connection and someone willing to do the work, meaning that children here in Dayton are growing up competing with children not only in Detroit, but in Delhi as well.

What matters, then, isn't what you do or where you live, but what you know. When two-thirds of all new jobs require a higher education or advanced training, knowledge is the most valuable skill you can sell. It's not only a pathway to opportunity, but a prerequisite. Without a good pre-school education, our children are less likely to keep up with their peers. Without a high school diploma, you're likely to make about three times less than a college graduate. And without a college degree or industry certification, it's harder and harder to find a job that can help you support your family and keep up with rising costs.

But it's not just that a world-class education is essential for workers to compete and win, it's that an educated workforce is essential for America to compete and win. Without a workforce trained in math, science, and technology and the other skills of the 21st century, our companies will innovate less, our economy will grow less, and our nation will be less competitive. If we want to outcompete the world tomorrow, we must out-educate the world today.

If we want to keep building the cars of the future here in America, we can't afford to see the number of PhDs in engineering climbing in China, South Korea, and Japan even as it's dropped here in America; we can't afford a future where our high school students rank near the bottom in math and science, and our high school drop-out rate is one of the highest in the industrialized world.

If we want to build a 21st century infrastructure and repair our crumbling roads and bridges, we can't afford a future where a third of all 4th graders and a fifth of all 8th graders can't do basic math, and black and Latino students are even further behind; where elementary school kids are only getting an average 25 minutes of science each day when over 80% of the fastest-growing jobs require some knowledge in math and science.

If we want to see middle class incomes rising like they did in the 1990's, we can't afford a future where so many Americans are priced out of college; where only 20 percent of our students are prepared to take college-level English, math, and science; where millions of jobs are going unfilled because Americans don't have the skills to work them; and where barely one in ten low-income students will ever get their college degree.

That kind of future is economically untenable for America. It is morally unacceptable for our children. And it is not who we are as a nation.

We are a nation that has always renewed our system of education to meet the challenges of a new time. Lincoln created the land grant colleges to ensure the success of the union he was fighting to save. Generations of leaders built mandatory public schools to prepare our children for the changing needs of our nation. And Eisenhower doubled federal investment in education after the Soviets beat us to space.

That is the kind of leadership we must show today.

But that's not the leadership we've been getting from Washington. For decades, they've been stuck in the same tired debates over education that have crippled our progress and left schools and parents to fend for themselves. It's been Democrat versus Republican, vouchers versus the status quo, more money versus more reform. There's partisanship and there's bickering, but there's no understanding that both sides have good ideas that we'll need to implement if we hope to make the changes our children need. And we've fallen further and further behind as a result.

If we're going to make a real and lasting difference for our future, we have to be willing to move beyond the old arguments of left and right and take meaningful, practical steps to build an education system worthy of our children and our future.

In the past few weeks, my opponent has taken to talking about the need for change and reform in Washington, where he has been part of the scene for about three decades.

And in those three decades, he has not done one thing to truly improve the quality of public education in our country. Not one real proposal or law or initiative. Nothing.

Instead, he marched with the ideologues in his party in opposing efforts to hire more teachers, and expand Head Start, and make college more affordable. You don't reform our schools by opposing efforts to fully fund No Child Left Behind. And you certainly don't reform our education system by calling to close the Department of Education. That would just make it harder for us to give out financial aid, harder for us to keep track of how our schools are doing, and lead to widening inequality in who gets a college degree.

That is not my idea of reform. That is not my idea of change. That is not a plan to help your kids compete with those kids in China and India.

After three decades of indifference on education, do you really believe that John McCain is going to make a difference now?

John McCain doesn't get it. He doesn't understand that our success as a nation depends on our success in education.

I do.

That's why last November, I proposed an education agenda that moves beyond party and ideology and focuses instead on what will make the most difference in a child's life. My plan calls for giving every child a world-class education from the day they're born until the day they graduate from college. It's a plan that starts with investing in early-childhood education because we know that children in these programs are more likely to score higher in reading and math, more likely to graduate high school and attend college, more likely to hold a job and earn more in that job. And it's a plan that will finally put a college degree within reach for anyone who wants one by providing a $4,000 tax credit to any middle class student who's willing to serve their community or their country.

Of course, we also have to fix the broken promises of No Child Left Behind. Now, I believe that the goals of this law were the right ones. Making a promise to educate every child with an excellent teacher is right. Closing the achievement gap that exists in too many cities and rural areas is right. More accountability is right. Higher standards are right.

But I'll tell you what's wrong with No Child Left Behind. Forcing our teachers, our principals, and our schools to accomplish all of this without the resources they need is wrong. Promising high-quality teachers in every classroom and then leaving the support and the pay for those teachers behind is wrong. Labeling a school and its students as failures one day and then throwing your hands up and walking away from them the next is wrong.

And by the way - don't tell us that the only way to teach a child is to spend most of the year preparing him to fill in a few bubbles on a standardized test. Let's finally help our teachers and principals develop a curriculum and assessments that teach our kids to become more than just good test-takers. We need assessments that can improve achievement by including the kinds of research, scientific investigation, and problem-solving that our children will need to compete in a 21st century knowledge economy.

We must fix the failures of No Child Left Behind. We must provide the funding we were promised, and give our states the resources they need, and finally meet our commitment to special education. But Democrats have to realize that fixing No Child Left Behind is not enough to prepare our children for a global economy.

We need a new vision for a 21st century education - one where we aren't just supporting existing schools, but spurring innovation; where we're not just investing more money, but demanding more reform; where parents take responsibility for their children's success; where our schools and government are accountable for results; where we're recruiting, retaining, and rewarding an army of new teachers, and students are excited to learn because they're attending schools of the future; and where we expect all our children not only to graduate high school, but to graduate college and get a good paying job.

It's time to ask ourselves why other countries are outperforming us in education. Because it's not that their kids are smarter than ours - it's that they're being smarter about how to educate their kids. They're spending less time teaching things that don't matter and more time teaching things that do. Their students are spending more time in school, and they're setting higher expectations.

That's what we need to be doing - because America isn't a country that accepts second place. When I'm President, we'll fight to make sure we're once again first in the world when it comes to high school graduation rates. We'll push our kids to study harder and aim higher. I've worked with Republican Senator Jim DeMint on a bill that would challenge high school students to take college-level courses - and make sure low-income neighborhoods and rural communities have access to those courses. And I'll make it the law of the land when I'm President. And we'll also set a goal of increasing the number of high school students taking college-level or AP courses by 50 percent in the coming years. Because I believe that when we challenge our kids to succeed, they will.

A while back, I was talking with my friend Arne Duncan, who runs the Chicago Public Schools. He was explaining how he'd managed to increase the number of kids taking and passing AP courses in Chicago over the last few years. What he said was, our kids aren't smarter than they were three years ago; our expectations for them are just higher. Well, I think it's time we raised expectations for our kids all across this country, and that's what we'll do when I'm President of the United States.

The second thing we need to do is make sure that we're preparing our kids for the 21st century economy by bringing our school system into the 21st century. Part of what that means is fostering the kinds of schools that will help prepare our kids, which is why I'm calling for the creation of an Innovative Schools Fund. This fund will invest in schools like the Austin Polytechnical Academy, which is located in a part of Chicago that's been hard hit by the decline in manufacturing over the past few decades. Thanks to partnerships with a number of companies, a curriculum that prepares students for a career in engineering, and a requirement that students graduate with at least two industry certifications, Austin Polytech is bringing hope back to the community. And that's the kind of model we'll replicate across the country when I'm President of the United States.

Giving our parents real choices about where to send their kids to school also means showing the same kind of leadership at the national level that I did in Illinois when I passed a law to double the number of charter schools in Chicago. That is why as President, I'll double the funding for responsible charter schools. Now, I know you've had a tough time with for-profit charter schools here in Ohio. That is why I'll work with Governor Strickland to hold for-profit charter schools accountable, and I'll work with all our nation's governors to hold all our charter schools accountable. Charter schools that are successful will get the support they need to grow. And charters that aren't will get shut down. And we'll help ensure that more of our kids have access to quality afterschool and summer school and extended school days for students who need it - because if they can do that in China, we can do that right here in the United States of America.

As we bring our school system into the 21st century, we also have to bring our schools into the 21st century. Because while technology has transformed just about every aspect of our lives - from the way we travel to the way we communicate to the way we look after our health - one of the places where we've failed to seize its full potential is in the classroom.

Imagine a future where our children are more motivated because they aren't just learning on blackboards but on new whiteboards with digital touch screens; where every student in a classroom has a laptop at their desk; where they don't just do book reports but design PowerPoint presentations; where they don't just write papers but build websites; where research isn't done just by taking a book out of the library but by emailing experts in the field; and where teachers are less a source of knowledge than a coach for how best to use it. By fostering innovation, we can help make sure every school in America is a school of the future.

That's what we'll do when I'm President. We'll help schools integrate technology into their curriculum so we can make sure public school students are fluent in the digital language of the 21st century economy. We'll teach our students not only math and science, but teamwork, and critical thinking and communication skills - because that's how we'll make sure they're prepared for today's workplace.

But no matter how many choices we're giving our parents or how much technology we're using in our schools or how tough our classes are, none of it will make much difference if we don't also recruit, prepare, and retain outstanding teachers. Because from the moment a child enters a school, the most important factor in their success is the person standing at the front of the classroom.

That's why last year, I proposed a new Service Scholarship program that will recruit top talent into the profession, and place these new teachers in overcrowded districts and struggling rural towns, or hard-to-staff subjects like special education in schools across the nation. To prepare these new teachers, I'll create more Teacher Residency Programs that will build on a law I recently passed and train 30,000 high-quality teachers a year, especially in math and science. To support our teachers, we'll expand mentoring programs that pair experienced, successful teachers with new recruits.

And when our teachers succeed in making a real difference in our children's lives, we should reward them for it by finding new ways to increase teacher pay that are developed with teachers, not imposed on them. We can do this. From Prince George's County in Maryland to Denver, Colorado, we're seeing teachers and school boards coming together to design performance pay plans.

So yes, we must give teachers every tool they need to be successful. But we also need to give every child the assurance that they'll have the teacher they need to be successful. That means setting a firm standard - teachers who are doing a poor job will get extra support, but if they still don't improve, they'll be replaced. Because as good teachers are the first to tell you, if we're going to attract the best teachers to the profession, we can't settle for schools filled with poor teachers.

Now, I know this sounds like a lot, but we can do it all - we can increase the number of students taking college-level courses; expand innovation and school choice; invest in the schools of tomorrow; and put a quality teacher in every classroom - all for the cost of just a few days in Iraq. And we'll pay for that cost by carefully winding down the war in Iraq, by ending no-bid contracts, and by eliminating wasteful spending. So we'll make these investments, but we'll do it without mortgaging our children's future on an even larger amount of debt. We'll do it responsibly.

This leads me to my final point - as President, I will lead a new era of accountability in education. But I don't just want to hold our teachers accountable. I want you to hold our government accountable. I want you to hold me accountable. That's why every year I'm President, I will report back to you on the progress our schools are making. Because it's time to stop passing the buck on education, and start accepting responsibility, and that's the kind of example I'll set as President of the United States.

Accountability in Washington starts by making sure that every tax dollar spent by the Department of Education is being spent wisely. When I'm President, programs that work will get more money. Programs that don't will get less. And we'll send a team to fix bad programs by replacing bad managers. Because your tax dollars should only be funding programs and grants that actually make a difference in a child's education.

But in the end, responsibility for our children's success doesn't start in Washington. It starts in our homes. It starts in our families. Because no education policy can replace a parent who's involved in their child's education from day one, who makes sure their children are in school on time, helps them with their homework after dinner, and attends those parent-teacher conferences. No government program can turn off the TV, or put away the video games, or read to your children.

But we can help parents do a better job. That's why I'll create a parent report card that will show you whether your kid is on the path to college. We'll help schools post student progress reports online so you can get a regular update on what kind of grades your child is getting on tests and quizzes from week to week. If your kid is falling behind, or playing hooky, or isn't on track to go to college or compete for that good paying job, it will be up to you to do something about it.

So yes, we need to hold our government accountable. Yes, we have to hold our schools accountable. But we also have to hold ourselves accountable.

You know, when I dropped my daughters off at school yesterday, I couldn't help but think about all America had done over the years to give me and my family a good education. This is a country that put my grandfather through college on the GI Bill after he left Patton's Army. This is a country that drew my father - like so many immigrants - across an ocean in search of a college degree. And this is a country that let the child of a teenage mom and an absent father reach for his dreams.

You see, I wasn't born with a lot of advantages. But I was given love, and support, and an education that put me on a pathway to success. The same was true for Michelle. She came from a blue collar family on the south side of Chicago. Even though her father had multiple sclerosis, he went to work every day at the local water filtration plant to support his family. And Michelle and her brother were able to go to a great college, and reach a little further for their dreams.

So I know that the only reason Michelle and I are where we are today is because this country we love gave us the chance at an education. And the reason I'm running for President is to give every single American that same chance; to give the young sisters out there born with a gift for invention the chance to become the next Orville and Wilbur Wright; to give the young boy out there who wants to create a life-saving cure the chance to become the next Jonas Salk; and to give the child out there whose imagination has been sparked by the wonders of the internet the chance to become the next Bill Gates.

Our future depends on it. When the story of our time is told, I don't want it to be said that China seized this moment to reform its education system, but the United States did not. I don't want it to be said that India led the way on innovation, but the United States did not. I want it to be said that we rose to meet this challenge, and educated our people to become the most highly-skilled workers in the world - just like we always have been.

Because I know that if we can just bring our education system into the 21st century, not only will our children be able to fulfill their God-given potential, and our families be able to live out their dreams; not only will our schools out-educate the world and our workers outcompete the world; not only will our companies innovate more and our economy grow more, but at this defining moment, we will do what previous generations of Americans have done - and unleash the promise of our people, unlock the promise of our country, and make sure that America remains a beacon of opportunity and prosperity for all the world. Thank you.

LW: Will you please state your full name?
AG: Allen Ginsberg.
LW: What is your Occupation?
AG: Poet.
LW: Have you authored any books in the field of poetry?
AG: In 1956, Howl and other Poems; in 1960, Kaddish and other poems; in 1963, Empty Mirror; in 1963, Reality Sandwiches, and in 1969, Planet News.
LW: Now, in addition to your writing, Mr. Ginsberg, are you presently engaged in any other activity?
AG: I teach, lecture, and recite poetry at universities.
LW: Now, did you ever study abroad?
AG: Yes. In India and Japan.
LW: Could you indicate for the court and jury what the area of your studies consisted of?
AG: Mantra yoga, meditation exercises and sitting quietly, breathing exercises to calm the body and calm the mind, but mainly a branch called mantra yoga, which is yoga which involved prayer and chanting.
LW: How long did you study?
AG: I was in India for a year and a third, and then in Japan studying with Gary Snyder, a Zen poet, at Daitoku-ji monastery, D-A-I T-O-K-U-J-I. I sat there for the zazen exercises for centering the body and quieting the mind.
LW: Are you still studying under any of your former teachers?
AG: Yes, Swami Bahktivedanta – faith, philosophy – Bhakti Vedanta, B-A-H-K-T-I V-E-D-A-N-T-A. I have seen him and chanted within the last few years in different cities, and he has asked me to continue chanting, especially on public occasions. This involves chanting and praying, praying out loud and in community.
LW: In the course of a mantra chant, is there any particular position that the person doing that assumes?
AG: Any position which will let the stomach relax and be easy, fall out, so that aspiration can be deep into the body, to relax the body completely and calm the mind, based as cross-legged,
LW: And is it – chanting -to be done privately, or is it in public?
Thomas Foran (prosecutor): Oh, your Honor, I object. I think we have gone far enough now..
Judge (Julius Hoffman): I think I have a vague idea now of the witness’ profession. It is vague.
TF: I think I might also indicate that he is an excellent speller.
AG: : Sir,,
Judge: Yes, sir.
AG: In India, the profession of’ poetry and the profession of chanting are linked together as one practice.
Judge: That’s right, I give you credit for that.

Allen Ginsberg & Jerry Rubin – Photo: Larry Sloman
LW: Mr. Ginsberg, do you know the defendant Jerry Rubin?
AG: Yes, I do.
LW: Do you recall where it was that you first met him?
AG: : In Berkeley and San Francisco in 1965 during the time of the anti-Vietnam war marches in Berkeley. I saw him again at the Human Be-in in San Francisco. We shared the stage with many other people.
LW: Would you describe for the Court and jury what the “Be-in” in San Francisco was?
AG: A large assembly of younger people who came together to…
TF: Objection, your Honor.
Judge: Just a minutes I am not sure how you spell the “be-in”.
LW: B-E I-N, I believe – “be-in”.
AG: Human be-in.
Judge: I really can’t pass on the validity of the objection because I don’t understand the question.
LW: I asked him to explain what a “be-in” was.
TF: I would love to know also but I don’t think it has anything to do with this lawsuit.
Judge: I will over the objection of the Government, tell what a “be-in” is.
AG: A gathering-together of younger people aware of the planetary fate that we are all sitting in the middle of, imbued with a new consciousness, a new kind of society involving prayer, music, and spiritual life together rather than competition, acquisition and war.

LW: And was that the activity that was engaged in in San Francisco at this “be-in”?
AG: There was what was called a “gathering of the tribes” of all the different affinity groups, spiritual groups, political group, yoga groups, music groups and poetry groups that all felt the same crisis of identity crisis of the planet and political crisis in America, who all came together in the largest assemblage of such younger people that had taken place since the war, in the presence of the Zen master Suzuki, and in the presence of the rock bands, and the presence of Timothy Leary and Mr. Rubin.
LW: Now, later on in the year of 1967 did you have occasion to meet again with the defendant Jerry Rubin?
AG: Yes, we met in a cafe in Berkeley and discussed his mayoral race for the city of Berkeley. He had run for mayor.
LW: Did you have any participation in that campaign?
AG:: I encouraged it, blessed it.
LW: Now, do you know the defendant Abbie Hoffman?

Abbie Hoffman (1982 at Naropa) – photo (c) Lance Gurwell
AG: Yes.
LW: Now, calling your attention to the month of February 1968, did you have any occasion in that month to meet with Abbie Hoffman?
AG: Yeah.
LW: Do you recall what Mr. Hoffman said in the course of the conversation.
AG: Yippee.. among other things.. He said that politics had become theater and magic, that it was the manipulation of imagery through mass media that was confusing and hypnotizing the people in the United States and making them accept a war which they did not really believe in, that people were involved in a life style that was intolerable to young folks, which involved brutality and police violence as well as a larger violence in Vietnam, and that ourselves might be able to get together in Chicago and invite teachers to present different ideas of what is wrong with the planet, what we can do to solve the pollution crisis, what we can do to solve the Vietnam war, to present different ideas for making the society more sacred and less commercial, less materialistic, what we could do to uplevel or improve the whole tone of the trap that we all felt ourselves in as the population grew and as politics became more and more violent and chaotic.
LW: Now, did he ascribe any particular name to that project?
AG: Festival of Life.
LW After he spoke to you, what, if anything, was your response to suggestion?
AG: I was worried whether or not the whole scene would get violent. I was worried whether we would be allowed to put on such a situation allowed to put.. I was worried, you know, whether the government would let us do something that was funnier or prettier or more charming than what was going to be going on in the Convention hall.

TF: I object and ask that it be stricken. It was not responsive.
Judge: Yes. I sustain the objection.
AG: Sir, that was our conversation,
LW: Now, during that same month, February of 1968, did you have occasion to meet with Jerry Rubin?
AG: I spoke with Jerry Rubin on the phone, I believe.
LW: Will you relate to the Court and jury what Jerry Rubin said to you?
AG: Jerry told me that he and others were going to Chicago to apply for permission from the city government for a permit to hold a Festival of Life and that he was talking with John Sinclair about getting rock and roll bands together and other musicians and that he would report back to me.
LW: Mr. Ginsberg, do you recall anything else that Mr. Rubin said to you in the course of that telephone conversation?
AG:: Yes, he said that he thought it would be interesting if we could get up little schools like ecology schools, music schools, political schools, schools about the Vietnam war, schools with yogis.
He asked if I could contact (William) Burroughs and ask Burroughs to come to teach non-verbal, non-conceptual feeling states.
LW: Now you indicated a school of ecology. Could you explain to the Court and jury what that is?
AG: Ecology is the interrelation of all the living forms on the surface of the planet involving the food chain—that is to say, whales eat plankton: larger fishes eat smaller fish, octopus or squid eat shellfish which eat plankton; human beings eat the shellfish or squid or smaller fish which eat the smaller tiny microorganisms
TF: That is enough, your Honor.
Judge: Yes. We all have a clear idea of what ecology is.
AG: Well, the destruction of ecology is what would have been taught. That is, how it is being destroyed by human intervention and messing it up with pollution.
LW: Now you also indicated that Mr. Rubin mentioned nonverbal education. Will you explain what that is to the Court and jury?
AG Most of our consciousness, since we are continually looking at images on television and listening to words, reading newspapers, talking in courts such as this, most of our consciousness is filled with language, with a kind of matter babble behind the ear, a continuous yakety-yak that actually prevents us from breathing deeply in our bodies and sensing more subtly and sweetly the feelings that we actually do have as persons to each other rather than as talking machines.
LW: Now, Mr. Ginsberg, on March 17, where were you?
AG: I took part in a press conference fit the Hotel Americana in New York City.
LW: Who else was present fit this press conference?
AG: Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin were there as well as Phil Ochs, the folk singer, Arlo Guthrie, some members of the USA band, some members of the Diggers groups.
LW: Could you indicate to the Court and jury what Jerry Rubin said?
AG: He said that a lot of younger people in America would come to Chicago during the Convention and hold a Festival of Life in the parks, and he announced that they were negotiating with the City Hall to get a permit to have a life festival in the parks.
LW: Do you recall what Abbie Hoffman said?
AG: He said that they were going to go to Chicago in groups to negotiate with representatives of Mayor Daley to get a permit for a large-scale Gathering of the Tribes and he mentioned the human be-in in San Francisco.
LW: Did you yourself participate in that press conference?
AG: Yes. I stepped to the microphone also. My statement was that the planet Earth at the present moment was endangered by violence, overpopulation, pollution, ecological destruction brought about by our own greed; that our younger children in America and other countries of the world might not survive the next thirty years; that it was a planetary crisis that had not been recognized by any government of the world and had not been recognized by our own government, nor the politicians who were preparing for the elections; that the younger people of America were aware of that and that precisely was what was called psychedelic consciousness; that we were going to gather together as we had before in the San Francisco human be-in to manifest our presence over and above the presence of the more selfish elder politicians who were not thinking in terms of what their children would need in future generations, or even ill the generation immediately coming, or even for themselves in their own lifetime and were continuing to threaten the planet with violence, with war, with mass murder, with germ warfare. And since the younger people knew that in the United States, we are going to invite them there, find that the central motive would be a presentation of a desire for the preservation of the planet. The desire for preservation of the planet and the planet’s form was manifested to my mind by the great mantra from India to the preserver god Vishnu whose mantra is the Hare Krishna. And then I chanted the Hare Krishna for ten minutes to the television cameras, and it goes:
Hare krishna/hare krishna/krishna krishna/hare hare/hare rama/hare rama/rama rama/hare hare.

LW: Now in chanting that did you have all accompaniment of any particular instrument?
( laughter)
LW: Your Honor, I object to the laughter of the Court on this. I think this is a serious presentation of a religious concept.
Judge: I don’t understand. I don’t understand it because it was… the language of the United States District Court is English.
William Kunstler (defence attorney) : I know, but you don’t laugh at all languages.
Judge: I didn’t laugh. I didn’t laugh.
AG: I would be happy to explain it.
Judge: I didn’t laugh at all. I wish I could tell you how I feel. (laughter) …I didn’t even smile.
Laugh—I didn’t even smile.
WK: Well, I thought—
Judge: All I could tell you is that I didn’t understand it because whatever language the witness is using..
AG: Sanskrit, sir.
Judge: Well, that is one I don’t know. That is the reason I didn’t understand it.
AG: Might we go on to in explanation?
Judge: Will you keep quiet, Mr. Witness, while I am talking to the lawyers?
AG: I will be glad to give an explanation.
Judge: I never laugh at a witness, sir. I protect witnesses who come to this court. But I do tell you that the language of the American court is English unless you have all interpreter. You may use an interpreter for the remainder of the witness’ testimony.
WK: No. I have heard, Your Honor, priests explain the mass in Latin in American courts and I think Mr. Ginsberg is doing exactly the same thing in Sanskrit for another type of religious experience.
Judge: I don’t understand Sanskrit. I venture to say the jury members don’t. Perhaps we have some people on the jury who do understand Sanskrit, I don’t know, but I wouldn’t even have known it was Sanskrit until he told me. I can’t see that that is material to the issues here, that is all.
LW: Let me ask this: Mr. Ginsberg, I show you an object marked 150 for identification, and I ask you to examine that object.
AG Yes.
[Allen “identifies” the object (a harmonium) by playing it]
TF: All right. Your Honor, that is enough. I object to it, your Honor. I think it is outrageous for counsel to..
Judge: You asked him to examine it find instead of that he played a tune on it. I sustain the objection.
AG: It adds spirituality to the case, sir.
Judge: Will you remain quiet, sir.
AG: I am sorry.
LW: Having examined that, could you identify it for the court and jury?
AG: It is an instrument known is the harmonium, which I used at the press conference at the Americana Hotel. It is commonly used in India.

Allen Ginsberg’s harmonium
TF: I object to that.
Judge: I sustain the objection.
LW: Will you explain to the Court and to the jury what chant you were chanting at the press conference?
AG: I was chanting a mantra called the “mala mantra,” the great mantra of preservation of that aspect of the Indian religion called Vishnu the Preserver. Every time human evil rises so high that the planet itself is threatened, and all of its inhabitants and their children are threatened, Vishnu will preserve a return.

Trump Begins To Name Appointees
November 12, 2024

Geoff Bennett (00:00):

Welcome to the NewsHour. President-elect Donald Trump is quickly picking the people he wants to advise him when he enters the White House again in January. That includes who he has chosen to lead his mass deportation effort, a campaign promise he said he'd begin carrying out on day one.

Amna Nawaz (00:17):

On Sunday, Mr. Trump announced on Truth Social that Tom Homan will be what he called his border czar. Trump said the former acting ICE director would be, "In charge of our nation's borders and in charge of all deportation of illegal aliens back to their country of origin."

Geoff Bennett (00:34):

And the President-elect is also expected to formally name Stephen Miller as his Deputy Chief of Staff for policy in the coming days. Vice-President-elect JD Vance confirmed the selection on the social media site X. Miller worked as an adviser during Mr. Trump's first term and is known as an immigration hardliner.

Amna Nawaz (00:53):

Our White House correspondent, Laura Barrón-López, has been covering all of this and joins us now. So Laura, we know immigration has been a core part of Mr. Trump's message. What is he pledging to do as soon as he enters the White House?

Laura Barrón-López (01:05):

Donald Trump made a host of promises during the campaign, and so based on statements that he made while campaigning, as well as what I have heard from sources close to the Trump incoming administration, what we expect him to prioritize are a number of things, including mass deportations of undocumented immigrants, restarting border wall construction, invoking the 1798 Alien Enemies Act, and directing more money and agents to the border. A note on that Alien Enemies Act, Amna, it's only been invoked during times of war, notably when the US carried out Japanese internment, and it would be used to rapidly deport alleged gang members without due process. It's going to likely be met with immediate lawsuits. Another thing I'm told Donald Trump will prioritize is a reconciliation package with Congress to allocate more money for this deportation effort and to add thousands of agents to the border.

Amna Nawaz (02:00):

And who would be carrying out that kind of effort when you talk about mass deportations?

Laura Barrón-López (02:05):

Tom Homan, who you just mentioned, Amna, the former acting ICE director, will lead this effort, and Homan was recently asked what that mass deportation effort would look like by CBS' 60 Minutes.

Amna Nawaz (02:19):

Is there a way to carry out mass deportation without separating families?

Tom Homan (02:24):

Of course, there is. Families can be deported together. Could their parent obviously entered the country illegally, had a child knowing he was in the country illegally, so he created that crisis.

Laura Barrón-López (02:38):

Homan was a supporter of the first term effort to separate families, that zero tolerance policy at the border, Amna, which ended up separating some 5,500 families. He was also a contributor to Heritage Foundation's Project 2025. And Homan is expected to work alongside Stephen Miller, who as we just said is expected to be named the Deputy Chief of Staff for policy. And Miller is going to also be overseeing immigration policy. He was known as one of the architects of that family's separation agenda during Trump's first term, and he is someone who supports very harsh immigration policy, recently saying at the Madison Square Garden rally that, "America is for America and Americans only."

(03:24)
And sources close to Trump World told me that Homan and Stephen Miller approach things a little bit differently. Homan is seen more as a cop, someone who very much wants to enforce the law and is less ideological than Stephen Miller, whose anti-immigrant positions are based on culture and identity. Now, when it comes to who may be the Secretary for the Homeland Security Department, Amna, sources close to the transition told me that Chad Wolf is a top contender. He served as acting director of Homeland Security during the first Trump administration, but other names in the mix include Ken Cuccinelli, as well as potentially Vivek Ramaswamy.

Amna Nawaz (04:04):

And Laura, when it comes to mass deportations, is that something President-elect Trump can do on day one, as he has pledged to do, and is a mass deportation effort even possible?

Laura Barrón-López (04:15):

As one source close to the transition told me, Amna, the planning is starting now, so that way implementation can happen on day one. Now, according to current estimates, there are roughly 11 million undocumented immigrants in this country, and Donald Trump and JD Vance both had previously talked about deporting anywhere from 1 million to 11 million undocumented immigrants. Most recently, Tom Homan and other Trump allies have said that their first priority for those deportations would be those who pose public safety threats and national security threats. But John Sandweg, who is a former director of ICE, acting director of ICE, said that if Trump goes through with those deportations of one million or more immigrants, it will reach far beyond just those who pose public safety threats.

John Sandweg (05:04):

I'm grateful that the administration says we want to focus first on public safety cases, but the bottom line is you can't deport a million people in a year, and you certainly cannot deport 11 million people without getting into these really tough cases, these cases where someone has been here a long time, has never been convicted of any criminal offense, has a US citizen, oftentimes a minor child who's a US citizen, and now you're saying, "Hey, we're going to take you into custody to remove you from the country," and putting these families in these incredibly difficult positions.

Laura Barrón-López (05:32):

So again, Amna, the big question is beyond deporting people who pose public safety threats, beyond deporting undocumented migrants who have committed violent or property crimes, who exactly is Trump going to target? Is it going to also include people whose visas have expired? A former DHS official told me that Trump and Tom Homan may target employers who have large undocumented migrant workers, so that could result in conducting raids. Of course, logistics are a big question here, Amna. It's going to require more agents, more transportation, more detention beds, and a lot of more money.

Amna Nawaz (06:08):

Laura, put this in context for us. Have we ever seen anything like this before?

Laura Barrón-López (06:13):

No, nothing that would be at this scale. If Donald Trump, if the President-elect is able to carry out something that would be deportations of 1 million or more undocumented migrants. And the big picture overall, Amna, is that people view Donald Trump's goals as one that would make it harder, not just for people to migrate here illegally, but also legal migration will be restricted severely under this administration. And there were a few other areas that I want to point out, Amna. One is that multiple former DHS officials and sources close to Trump World so that the administration may target states by blocking FEMA funding or funding for local law enforcement if those states are ones that provide driver's licenses to undocumented migrants. Other things that are on the table are ending birthright citizenship.

Amna Nawaz (07:02):

Before we let you go, Mr. Trump has named a few more people to serve in his administration. Who do we know?

Laura Barrón-López (07:07):

Today, the President-elect announced that he's going to be appointing former New York Congressman Lee Zeldin to lead the EPA and Congresswoman Elise Stefanik of New York to be the US Ambassador to the United Nations.

Amna Nawaz (07:21):

And we expect more names in the coming days. Laura Barrón-López, thank you so much.

Laura Barrón-López (07:25):

Thank you.

President Trump: [Inaudible]
Hello everybody.
Emmanuel Macron: Hello, how are you?
Question: Hello.
Macron: Bienvenue à tous [? AI Translation: "Welcome everyone."]
Question: Maybe a handshake, Mr. President?
Macron: Yeah.
Note: [The leaders shake hands for the press]
Macron: Merci beaucoup. [? AI Translation: "Thank you very much."]
Trump: So I want to congratulate the president. Last night, Ciryl Gane won the against a great fighter, supposed to be unbeatable, and, uh, that was -- Ciryl is from France. Did you watch the fight?
Macron: Yeah. Not direct, but I saw it this morning.
Trump: It was a great fight. It was a great evening at the White House.
Macron: Very fun [inaudible]
Trump: OK.
Macron: Please. Good afternoon, President. I'm going to say a few words in French.
Trump: Yeah.
Macron: [? AI Transcription] Bienvenue au président [? AI Translation: "Welcome to the president."]
I will say a few words in French.
[? AI Transcription] Je souhaitais d'abord accueillir et souhaiter la bienvenue au Président Trump. Merci d'être là au lendemain d'un anniversaire et de célébration, et je remercie son équipe, les ministres, les ambassadeurs et l'équipe la plus proche d'être là à ses côtés. [? AI Translation: "I wanted first of all to welcome President Trump. Thank you for being here the day after a birthday and celebration, and I thank his team, the ministers, the ambassadors, and his closest staff for being here by his side."]
[? AI Transcription] C'est important qu'on puisse d'abord avoir ce G7 au lendemain d'un accord essentiel qui a été scellé avec l'Iran, pour parler évidemment de nos grandes crises : l'Iran, l'Ukraine, nos guerres, leur règlement, construire la paix et restaurer la prospérité, mais aussi voir les voies et moyens de coopérer entre nos économies. C'est le but du G7 pour améliorer la prospérité, les éléments de coopération dans les différents domaines. [? AI Translation: "It is important that we can first hold this G7 following an essential agreement that was sealed with Iran, to discuss, of course, our major crises: Iran, Ukraine, our wars, their resolution, building peace, and restoring prosperity, but also to look at the ways and means of cooperating between our economies. That is the goal of the G7: to improve prosperity and foster elements of cooperation across different fields."]
[? AI Transcription] Puis nous aurons l'occasion aussi de célébrer à la française les 250 ans d'indépendance, la France ayant été aux côtés des États-Unis d'Amérique, à Versailles dans deux jours. [? AI Translation: "Then we will also have the opportunity to celebrate, in the French style, the 250th anniversary of independence -- France having stood alongside the United States of America -- in Versailles in two days."]
I wanted to say -- I mean, to commend President Trump for the celebration yesterday and to welcome President Trump and his ministers and his team for being here in Evian for the G-7. I think yesterday was signed a very important agreement, a peace deal with Iran. And it's a very important one, because, first, it will fix the nuclear issue -- first, it will fix the nuclear issue and it's a very important matter for peace, for the whole world and it will reopen Hormuz.
It will provide peace in Lebanon and so we are ready to take our fair share of the burden and be part of the commitment of the international community in order to support this deal.
Trump: Good.
Macron: And we will discuss about that together and his colleagues later on. But it's a very important step towards peace, but as well, for global economy. We will have the occasion to discuss about, um, the war in Ukraine in order to engage together and negotiate a good and solid peace and sustainable peace and President Zelenskyy will be with us as well tomorrow.
And obviously, we will have the occasion to bring this G-7 to speak about a series of issues from rare earths, critical minerals, trade, etc., where we have to build convergence amongst the G-7 members. And it will be the occasion for us to celebrate the 250 years of independence for the US.
Trump: Yeah.
Macron: And this is a good place because this is where the king and his minister of Foreign Affairs at the time did support the US during years.
Trump: That's right.
Macron: But as well prepared what we called the Paris Treaty in 1783, which was the final point of this war.
Trump: Right.
Macron: So it's a great honor and a great pleasure to have you, Mr. President, in Evian and Paris.
Trump: Thank you. Thank you. So, uh, Emmanuel has been a special friend of mine. We've had a fantastic relationship. We've worked on many deals together. I'm very happy to say very signed the deal is all signed and the strait is already partially opened. As you know, they're doing a little hunting for a couple of mines that they've already found.
But it's -- essentially, ships are starting to go out. Now, on Friday, it'll be completely opened. We got along very well with Iran. It's a different set of leaders. As you know, the first set is gone, the second set is gone, and we found the third set to be very smart, strong, very smart, but we ended up making a deal. I felt badly that we had to go back on the attack for two nights, and I thought a third, but we made it before that happened.
But I think a lot of great things are going to happen in the Middle East right now. And very importantly, the oil is plummeting down and the stock market is shooting up like a rocket today, like record kind of numbers. And the oil has taken its biggest plunge. And we're into the low numbers, not quite back yet, Kevin, to the extent, but we're getting close to the numbers we were before it all started.
And the main thing is that Iran will not have a nuclear weapon. They fully agreed to that, with strong policing powers. And they won't have a nuclear weapon, which is what it was all about, because they probably would have used it if they had it. So we had two big moments, when they terminated the JCPOA. That was the Obama deal, the Barack Hussein Obama deal.
And when I terminated that, it was very important, because it was a road to a nuclear weapon. It was a horrible deal for the United States. It was a deal where billions of dollars was given to Iran. It was a deal where $1.7 billion in cash was put on a Boeing 7 -- well, not a 7 -- 757, I guess, right? But it was put on a big, beautiful Boeing 757. They needed a Boeing 747, to be honest with you, because there was a lot of cash.
$1.7 billion was taken out of the banks and given to Iran. And on top of that, tens of billions of dollars was paid. So they tried to bribe them to make a deal and that didn't work. It never works. And we -- we've done a great job. And hopefully it's going to be a good relationship and we're going to get along.
And if we don't, we go back to where we started, but I don't think that's going to be necessary. The Iran deal that we made is going to bring a lot of a lot of success to the world, because the oil was really clogged up there for a while. He would call me on occasion and say, come on, please, let's go, the oil prices.
But the oil is coming way down. So I'm very honored by it. Uh, I want to thank you for your help. You've always been a help, and it's an honor to be with you. We had a very good conversation yesterday with President Zelenskyy and President Putin, and I see maybe we can do something there, I really do. I think they're both open to it. So, you know, now that this is finished, we're going to be focusing on that, see if we can get that one done.
25,000 people a month are dying, mostly -- mostly soldiers and that shouldn't happen. But I had two very good conversations yesterday. We'll be talking about it. And we had a really exciting, I think, maybe one of the most incredible evenings in the history of the White House. We had an evening last night with the fighters, and I was very happy.
I called last night, very late last night to congratulate you because in the heavyweight division, a French fighter won. I don't know, is that maybe more important than the World Cup? To some people, it might be, right? To some people it might be. You have a good team in the world --
Macron: Yeah.
Trump: -- very good team. But you have good fighters too, and you're a great country. And it's an honor to be with you. Thank you very much.
Question: Hey, sir, are you going to try to attend the signing ceremony on Friday?
Trump: Well it depends. JD is coming in for it. He was originally going to do it. I'll probably be gone by then. We're having dinner in a day and a half, right? We're going to be staying quite late. So I may be involved, I may not. But JD was coming in for that specifically.
Question: Thank you. Mr. President, when will the text of the MOU be released?
Trump: I think pretty soon. I would say -- I mean, I want it to be released because it's a very powerful document. It's not like the Obama document, which was just a terrible document. This is a very powerful document and I want it to be released. So probably pretty soon. I would say after -- sometime after Friday, because the strait opens -- It's open now, but it opens completely.
We'll have all the mines knocked out for the most part. We have a lot of lanes right now already. So I think -- I think sometime -- I think sometime in the very near future. Yeah.
Question: Mr. President, does the deal involve any sanctions relief for Iran? When would that go in to effect?
Trump: No it doesn't. Well, they have to -- it's really a behavioral thing. If they do what they're supposed to do, that starts taking effect.
Question: Mr. Macron --
[? AI Transcription] Monsieur Macron, quel engagement avez-vous fait prendre à la France, au nom de la France, dans le détroit d'Ormuz ? Vous avez parlé du porte-avions Charles de Gaulle. [? AI Translation "Mr. Macron, what commitment have you made on behalf of France in the Strait of Hormuz? You mentioned the aircraft carrier Charles de Gaulle"]
Mr. President, what do you expect from France --
Trump: Well, I would love them to do the -- I don't think we're going to need much help, because we have an agreement where it's going to be open and it's toll free. We had a little argument on that. It's toll free. So I don't think we're going to need much help, but I don't think it's a bad idea to have a ship or two up here from a few countries.
You'd be a great country to do it, because you never know what happens. But I think it's going to be open and I think it's going to be free sailing. We do want to see if we can straighten out the Lebanon -- the Lebanon thing, because it just seems to just never end. And that's a mini version of what we were doing.
But -- and it should not be tough. It should not be tough. So Hezbollah, we have to -- we have to have a little talk with them.
Note: [Crosstalk]
Macron: [? AI Transcription] Et je répondrai en français à la question qui était posée en français sur la contribution. Nous sommes prêts à avoir dès demain des chasseurs qui sont sur place et qui peuvent aider aux missions d'observation, et sous 48 heures des frégates qui peuvent évidemment se déployer, et sous deux à trois jours le porte-avions avec les frégates qui l'accompagnent et l'ensemble du groupe. [? AI Translation "And I will answer in French the question that was asked in French regarding the contribution. We are ready to have, as of tomorrow, fighter jets that are on-site and can assist with observation missions; within 48 hours, frigates that can obviously deploy; and within two to three days, the aircraft carrier along with its accompanying frigates and the entire strike group."]
[? AI Transcription] Évidemment, tout ça suppose d'être souhaité et demandé par les États-Unis d'Amérique, l'Iran, l'Oman, c'est-à-dire les parties prenantes de l'accord et les deux parties, en particulier autour du détroit. [? AI Translation "Obviously, all of this presupposes that it is desired and requested by the United States of America, Iran, and Oman—meaning the stakeholders of the agreement and both parties, particularly around the strait."]
[? AI Transcription] Et nous avons agrégé avec les Britanniques une mission ad hoc où d'ores et déjà une vingtaine de pays ont donné leur contribution concrète et ce qu'ils étaient prêts à faire, et nous sommes quatre à être présents dans la région. [? AI Translation "And we have assembled, along with the British, an ad hoc mission in which around twenty countries have already provided their concrete contribution and what they were prepared to do, and four of us are present in the region."]
[? AI Transcription] Voilà, c'est une offre, nous sommes à disposition. Ça montre le soutien de la communauté internationale, notre volonté de rouvrir ce détroit et, comme l'a dit le Président, peut-être que ça ne sera pas souhaité, et peut-être que ce ne sera pas nécessaire, mais en tout cas, c'est une disposition qui est -- qui marque notre volonté d'aider, de soutien, et notre disponibilité. Et nous sommes prêts. [? AI Translation "So, that is our offer, we are at your disposal. This demonstrates the support of the international community, our determination to reopen this strait and, as the President said, perhaps it will not be desired, and perhaps it will not be necessary, but in any case, it is a provision that --- that marks our willingness to help, our support, and our availability. And we are ready."]
Trump: That's good.
Question: [? AI Transcription] Vous êtes inquiet sur les menaces de droits de douane? [? AI Translation "Are you worried about the threats of tariffs?"]
Macron: [? AI Transcription] Non, non, on est là pour -- on est là pour discuter, il y a des accords qui ont été signés en avance. Merci beaucoup. Merci. Merci. [? AI Translation "No, no, we are here to -- we are here to discuss, there are agreements that were signed beforehand. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you."]
Transcript courtesy of Roll Call

President Trump: Well, thank you very much, everybody. I just want to say, His Highness is a warrior. He was in there fighting, and he does what has to be done and he's known for it. He's a courageous man he's got a great country. It's a fantastic country. And they've been with the United States for a long time, but I would say much -- much more so since I came on board, I will say.
And they've invested trillions of dollars in the United States. And I was telling them before, in another meeting, that we have over $19 trillion being invested in the United States, which is a record, and it's building factories, car plants, everything. We're doing things that have never been done. The record was $3 billion many years ago with a different country, and we're going to be over $19 trillion.
I think we'll hit $19.3 trillion. So there's probably not going to be anything -- maybe we'll do better next year. I don't know if it can -- I don't know if you can do better. But I just want to say that the relationship has been outstanding. He's a man of great respect. Everybody respects him and they respect your country, and it's an honor to be with you.
And we just signed a deal with Iran and this country was very, very -- a very powerful ally and good things are happening. The ships are starting to move now. We're going to have it fully open by Friday. The ships are starting to move nicely.
Oil is starting to go, and the prices are coming down rapidly. Stock market is going up rapidly. A lot of good things are happening. And most importantly, Iran will not have a nuclear weapon. That was how I got involved in this. We can't let that happen.
So they will not have a nuclear weapon. And other than that, I'd like to ask His Highness to say a few words. Then, if you want, we can take a couple of questions. Please.
Mohamed bin Zayed Al Nahyan: Well, it is my pleasure, Mr. President, to be with you here. And I want to say that we are so grateful to have you here. And as a president of the United States and thank you for your support, your commitment to your friend, to your allies, and especially, thank you for your support during the six war -- six-week war.
It means a lot to us and you show us who's really ally. And without your support, your commitment, Mr. President, not my country only, but the Middle East would be [Inaudible] different situation today. So really, my pleasure to see you today [Inaudible] Thank you for giving us the time and there is a lot of things we can talk about for going forward between our two countries, how we can make our relationship even better.
Trump: We love it. Thank you, my friend. See, when you're that rich, you can speak that lowly. I was just wondering, can anybody hear that? But when you're so rich, you have such confidence that you don't have to do any strain to the voice. He's great. So, do you have any questions, please?
Question: What should we expect from the second stage of the negotiations from --
Trump: I don't know. It's a 60-day period or so. I think it's going to happen fairly on time. We've been both involved. I think they're going to want to get it done. If Iran wants to get it done, they have to get back to business. And the relationship is now normalized, so I think it's going to go pretty quickly, Steve.
Could go faster. Could take longer too, but it could go faster.
Question: There's so much interest in the text of the document. Why not -- why not release the --
Trump: Oh, I will.
Question: Why not release it --
Trump: Well, because I'd like to get a formal setting first before we do that, but I have no problem with that. It's a great document. Here's what it says, Iran will never have a nuclear weapon. That's what it says. It won't have one. Dubai, to develop, they will not have a nuclear weapon. And I would say that's about 99.9 percent of what I wanted, because we couldn't let that happen.
You couldn't let that happen. Uh, and they won't have a nuclear weapon. Now, in addition to that, the strait is going to be open, toll-free. And it's toll-free beyond the 60 days. It's not -- somebody said, oh, it's toll-free for -- no, no, its toll free, period. When it opens permanently, it'll be toll free.
Uh, I want to congratulate our Navy because the naval blockade was unbelievable. But I will -- actually, I'll not only release it, I'll probably have a press conference and read it to you word by word, so that the press covers it accurately. Because it's a -- it's a very important document. And, uh, unlike Obama, who could have destroyed the Middle East with a horrible JCPOA, it is the worst agreement.
That was a road to a nuclear weapon. Mine is a wall against a nuclear weapon. I mean, I see these people say, but we already had one. That was the worst. He paid a fortune for it. We pay nothing. We don't pay. There was some statement, we're going to spend $300 million, no, we're not. We're not allowed to go and invest if we wanted to someday in the future.
We have no obligation whatsoever. It could be that Iran will turn out to be successful one day. They have oil. But, uh, if we left a week ago, just left, before the last two attacks, it would have taken them 20 years to rebuild Iran. So -- but I'll go over the document with the media in a couple of days.
Question: Mr. President, a few weeks back, you said you'd like to see other nations join the Abraham Accords, much like the UAE has. Um, have there been any discussions with Arab leaders about that?
Trump: About what?
Question: Joining the Abraham Accords like UAE does.
Trump: Yeah. Well, I'd love to have them. This is a man who's very advanced. He was early in and he's done very well with them, the whole -- the Abraham Accords. Uh, no, it's, uh, I think -- I think they should happen. The big -- the big impediment to the Abraham Accords, we have our original countries, very smart countries, every one of them.
Do you notice that even during that period of conflict, nobody dropped out? Nobody said, oh, gee, I'm going to drop out, nobody. Um, I think they're all going to come in, yeah, into the Abraham Accords. The only conflict was a place called Iran. And I understand that. You know, it's a little bit tough when people were afraid of Iran.
Uh, so -- but I think they're going to all start coming in there. Good question, actually. Yeah.
Question: Mr. President, what do you say to Republicans like Senator Lindsey Graham, who is skeptical of the MOU? Um -- to --
Trump: Lindsey is skeptical?
Question: Yes.
Trump: I'll have to talk to Lindsey. He'll be in big trouble. Lindsey's good. Lindsey is fine. He's not skeptical. He's just fine. Look, this agreement covers something very nicely. We're not paying for anything. We're not doing anything. The markets now are higher than they were when we started. Remember that, the stock market now is 2,500, maybe even more than that, points higher than it was when we -- it's pretty amazing.
Um, disagreements about one thing, that Iran will never have a nuclear weapon, never, ever, ever. The rest of it's irrelevant, frankly.
Question: Senator Graham also said that an eventual agreement with Iran should be sent to Congress for review. Would you do that?
Trump: I never thought of it, but I would. I wouldn't mind. I mean, you know, the Democrats -- you know, we call them Dumocrats because they're dumb people. The Dumocrats are -- well, what I'd like to do is send it to Congress, saying, you shouldn't approve it, and I'll get it approved. They do -- whatever I say, they want to do the opposite.
Uh, it's not working too well for them, by the way. But yeah, I never thought about sending -- I never even thought about it, but I will. I will send it to Congress. I like the idea.
Question: On another topic –
Trump: I mean, who wouldn't approve it? Let's let them have a nuclear weapon. The Dumocrats will say, oh, they should have a nuclear weapon. They'll go crazy. I like the idea. Send it to Congress, please. All right?
Question: Mr. President, were you briefed on the attack -- the attack plans for the UFC event at the White House? There was -- the FBI [Inaudible] an attack.
Trump: I haven't heard about it, no. But I watched -- the attack that I watched were the fighters. And he saw it, too, by the way. He was sitting back home in his beautiful palace and he was watching that. And they were as good a fights as I've ever seen, right?
Al Nahyan: The best fight.
Trump: The best. They were. That last fight was brutal. And the two last -- all of the fights.
Al Nahyan: Two fights.
Trump: It was all good. It was a great evening. It was a very different for the White House, but I wish you could have been there. They -- we built an incredible arena. Dana did a great job.
Al Nahyan: Is there going to be another fight next year, Mr. President?
Trump: Well, I don't know -- I got away with it because 250 years. Maybe in another 50, maybe at 300.
Question: Are you considering an increase on sanctions on Russia and whether it's illegal --
Trump: Well, soon we'll be able to do that because the oil is now flowing. So we put -- we took sanctions off because, obviously, we're not looking to impede the oil. So we're in a position to do that soon.
Question: Let them lapse and --
Trump: Yeah, at some point.
Question: Mr. President, I have a question.
Trump: Yes.
Question: Regarding this --
Trump: What a nice looking person. Is he from your country? Is he from your country?
Al Nahyan: Absolutely.
Trump: No, he's got such a nice way about him. My people are so -- they're so mean. Look at him, handsome guy.
Al Nahyan: Be careful.
Trump: No, I can put him in a movie right now. Go ahead.
Question: Mr. President, how can we make sure that Strait of Hormuz is lasting for -- open for lasting and navigation in the future?
Trump: Have a United States with a strong president. It's the only way you can do it, I guess, when you think. we have all the agreements you want. The agreements for bad people don't mean anything. Um, look, we were the ones that blockaded -- they blockaded it, and we then said, well, we blockaded it for them, so they didn't get any oil.
You're going to need to have, and this is true with a lot of things, if you have a strong president of the United States, a lot of good things can happen. You know? You know that better than anybody, right?
Al Nahyan: Absolutely.
Trump: You know it better than anybody.
Al Nahyan: Stability of the --
Question: Can you talk a little bit more about the plan for the enriched uranium that is in the mountains?
Trump: Yeah, we do. We'll take it --
Question: Has Iran -- has Iran said they would welcome the US coming in? But how specifically –
Trump: Iran will be just fine. What's happening is that at an appropriate time -- there's no rush at all. We have cameras from space on it. We know everybody that goes there, which is like nobody. The B-2 bombers hit it. The entire mountain collapsed inside it. It's a very tough excavation. Nobody else can do it but us and probably China.
They have the equipment, we have the equipment. We're in no rush but we get it and when we get it, we'll destroy it. We're not looking to take it, we're looking to destroy it. We have plenty of it.
Question: [Inaudible] dinner tomorrow night, what prompted you to go to that? The dinner tomorrow night --
Trump: So -- well, I'm a fan of beautiful places. And I was leaving in the afternoon and then the French president, who happens to be a very nice man, invited me to dinner at Versailles. And Versailles is not a gold leaf. Versailles is the real deal. And I said, I'd like to do it. I mean, you know, all it means is that I get home later in the evening, meaning early in the morning.
And I'm not a big sleeper anyway. I'll be in the Oval Office very -- I won't -- I won't lose any time in the Oval Office. So I have to say this, our country is doing really well. We're doing better than we've ever done as a country. The stock market's the highest. Everything's the highest. 401-Ks are the highest they've ever been by 25 percent.
And we're doing really well. And now you're going to see prices coming down. You know, when I took over, prices were very high. We had the worst inflation in the history of our country. Prices were high. Eggs were high. Bacon was high. Everything was high. And the first question I got asked, what about affordability?
I did a news conference one day after I took over, and these people said, what about affordability? I said, I didn't cause it, but I'm bringing it down. And now with the fuel going way down, you saw it yesterday, it went down $6, $7. With fuel going down, as goes fuel, so goes everything. I've always seen that, right, fuel.
You're in a very good business because as goes fuel, so goes everything. Fuel is dropping. It's now in the 70s per barrel. And I think we'll get it down. When I say -- I was in Iowa and we had great victories in Iowa. And when I left, I noticed that a gas station, $1.85 a gallon. That's where we were. It was a little bit higher generally, but I saw two stations, $1.85, one had $1.91. And, you know, we're going to get around those levels.
So very honored. Thank you very much, everybody.
Transcript courtesy of Roll Call

The biggest and most consequential Decision issued by the Court, by far, is the Slaughter Case, which overturned the very famous Humphrey’s Executor Rule. This whole concept of “Power” has been fought over for nearly 100 years, going all the way back to Franklin Delano Roosevelt, where a large slice of his Power was taken away. He fought to regain it, even wanting to “pack the Court,” but was unsuccessful in doing so. This Decision gives tremendous additional Power back to the Presidency, where it belongs. It is an Honor to be the sitting President who, after all these years, WON this very important, and hard fought, Case. We had other good Victories, too, and we also had the Birthright Citizenship loss, which we will work to correct in Congress, but the big SLAUGHTER, was SLAUGHTER. The Republican Party was treated very fairly by the United States Supreme Court. Thank you for your attention to this matter! President DONALD J. TRUMP